Does anyone know who makes the oil Mazda sells? Anyone have an opinion on brand recommendations? I've always been a fan of Castrol as it held it's viscosity better in older Consumer Reports testing. Lately it seems the differences are very small. I'll go with that unless someone suggests strongly something else or can tell me the mfgr of Mazda's 5W/20. thanks.

5w-20 is a new weight being specified for new Fords and Hondas, so it will get real popular, real soon.

In the meantime, it is pretty hard to find, but Quaker State makes one that should be available nationally.

It is expensive, too, about $3+ per quart, but will get cheaper when it is more popular.
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doc

I saw several brands of it a couple weeks ago at my local Wal-Mart. I belive Castrol, Valvoline and perhaps Pennzoil and / or Quaker State. I don't think any were as much as it was from the dealer ($2.50 it seems like from Mazda). I obviously wouldn't mix a different weight - but does the brand mean as little as I suspect it does with SL grade in these modern times?

BTW, I think Mazda has 5W/20 specified for either their MPV or the Mazda 6 now as well.

Hey Daniel,
I was once told it was Mobil1, but I'm not sure that's accurate.
I recently spoke to Rick Engman ( One of the most experienced rotary engine builders in the world-30years) and the concept of running 5w20 was frightening to him. He insists he won't be using it.

I use catrol and Pennzoil and beleive they are the best. My dad used to race stock cars and has a strong dislike for Quaker state from what he saw years ago it did to engines (probably different now though)

They have sales locally on these two brands - $1.28 quart - just bought a case of Castrol.

Only 5W-20 I can find locally is Valvoline. Which is fine by me... been using Valvoline in my cars for last 7 years anyways.
I've been to over a dozen autoparts stores and superstores (Super-K, Super Wal-mart, Meijers and Sam's Club). I'm at 1500mi and no noticible oil drop yet... but I keep a couple of quarts in the trunk just in case.

Peace

In Canada the 5W20 used by all Mazda shops is made by Petro-Canada and can be bought at ALL service centers.

$2.50-$3.00 per quart? As P.T. Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." At Advance Auto (that's a local version of Pep Boys or Autozone), I saw no less than 4 brands of 5W-20 weight oil, all for $1.19 - $1.39 per quart.

:eek:

I bought a quart of Pennzoil last week at WalMart for $1.69, and it was the only one I could find. But then, I was at WalMart .

Originally posted by RodsterinFL
I use catrol and Pennzoil and beleive they are the best. My dad used to race stock cars and has a strong dislike for Quaker state from what he saw years ago it did to engines (probably different now though)

They have sales locally on these two brands - $1.28 quart - just bought a case of Castrol. Pennsylvania crude oil is parafin-based. Yeah, like a candle. I used Quaker state a long time ago. In doing head jobs & stuff, it's obvious as to where the parafin goes. All over the innards of your engine. In my opinion, Quaker State is sold purely on the merits of its advertising, not on product. I never use Pennzoil cuz I won't give it the chance. Could be good. Don't care.

I use Castrol like I use deodorant. I found the brand that works best for me & I don't care what else is on the shelf.

Honda engines hold up beautifully at high revs, and Honda is always in the forefront of using lighter oils. My mechanic wouldn't stock 5-30 for my Integra GS-R; I had to bring it to him. "That stuff is like water," he said. But he didn't have any answer when I told him about using it for two half hour lapping sessions at Watkins Glen under a broiling sun, most of the time over 7,000 revs, with absolutely no ill effects (not even using extra oil). For the wear problem that's most important, startup, lighter grades are better. If Mazda and Honda say 20 is OK, that's what I will use.
Mitch

Originally posted by Mitch Strickler
Honda engines hold up beautifully at high revs, and Honda is always in the forefront of using lighter oils. My mechanic wouldn't stock 5-30 for my Integra GS-R; I had to bring it to him. "That stuff is like water," he said. But he didn't have any answer when I told him about using it for two half hour lapping sessions at Watkins Glen under a broiling sun, most of the time over 7,000 revs, with absolutely no ill effects (not even using extra oil). For the wear problem that's most important, startup, lighter grades are better. If Mazda and Honda say 20 is OK, that's what I will use.
Mitch

When I had an Integra GS-R I used only 5-30 too! Start ups were much smoother than 10-30, and I had absolutely no problems, smooth motor...

Originally posted by rx8daniel
Does anyone know who makes the oil Mazda sells? Anyone have an opinion on brand recommendations? I've always been a fan of Castrol as it held it's viscosity better in older Consumer Reports testing. Lately it seems the differences are very small. I'll go with that unless someone suggests strongly something else or can tell me the mfgr of Mazda's 5W/20. thanks.


My Mazda dealer said that the oil they get is from Mobil 1.

Mobil 1 and castrol seem to be the best from my research.

Mobile 1... isn't that sythetic? Is sythetic recommended for the 8 since it is designed to burn some small % of the oil ??

Originally posted by funksoulbrother
In Canada the 5W20 used by all Mazda shops is made by Petro-Canada and can be bought at ALL service centers.

Where did you get this info?

Originally posted by mx5-->rx8
Mobile 1... isn't that sythetic? Is sythetic recommended for the 8 since it is designed to burn some small % of the oil ?? Actually, it's the other way around.

If it wasn't exactly midnight & I have a full day ahead fully booked with things to do, I would try to find some evidence to that fact. Do a search here (yeah, sorry). The info abounds elsewhere on a few other threads.

when mazda changed my oil the tech said 5-20 is best for car and non-synethic because it will burn

Hey mikeb, could you please expound a little. I'm not sure I got what you said there...thanks

The Rotary engine burns oil. Synthetic is designed not to burn, and burns BADLY - leaves nasty deposits, etc. So never use Synthetic.

As for the 5W-20, I was under the impression that it's heavier, because the engine is hotter so a thinner oil will thin out too much with the heat and won't coat. No?

Originally posted by DisneyDestroyer
...As for the 5W-20, I was under the impression that it's heavier, because the engine is hotter so a thinner oil will thin out too much with the heat and won't coat. No? No.

5W-20 is about the thinnest oil I know. The higher the number, the thicker it is.

I'm not going to worry about Mazda being wrong on this. This is way too important for them to be wrong. There are a lot of factors that go into determining the correct viscosity. If you play with it (you can only opt for a thicker viscosity here), you are subject to major problems.

Don't play with it. Use 5W-20 non-synthetic. Unless you hear different from someone who knows more than Mazda, that is.

good points racer

I use Mobil1 Syn 10W-30 for my P5 and Pennzoil 5W-20 for my MPV.

I will go with the Pennzoil for the 8.

RacerX8---

I realize that this thread is old, but couldn't hold back. Dude, Pennzoil is a brand name, nothing more. The oil from Pennsylvania fields was depleted in the early 1900s. Ever heard of JD Rockefeller? All of the majors are getting their oil from wherever the stuff is being pumped out of the ground. Most likely the Middle East.

I'm going with Castrol GTX 5W20. It's non-synthetic. They sell it at walmart.

royal purple here 5w20 and it's synthetic...do a search synthetic is no tbad for a rotary engine


wow super old thread hahaha

I'm think Redline make 5W-20 too

My Mazda dealer said that the oil they get is from Mobil 1.

Mobil 1 and castrol seem to be the best from my research.

Well, I think dealer meant MOBIL. Mobil 1 is synthetic oil, but Mobil has conventional oils you can find at various car parts places. I had the dealer change my oil last November. They used Castrol GTX 5w20. It said it right on invoice. I guess people say Mobil 1, because that's the only oil they sell commercially. I'd take Castrol GTX over Mobil any day. I used that stuff on my old car, and it just looked weak to me. Maybe this explains why we burn so much oil. ;) I wonder where Walmarts' Supertech comes from. It might be just as good of oil made by someone big at fraction of cost, and we just don't know it. :)

RacerX8---

I realize that this thread is old, but couldn't hold back. Dude, Pennzoil is a brand name, nothing more. The oil from Pennsylvania fields was depleted in the early 1900s. Ever heard of JD Rockefeller? All of the majors are getting their oil from wherever the stuff is being pumped out of the ground. Most likely the Middle East.http://www.amref.com/

http://www.gulflubricants.net/

Here's an excerpt from http://info.cba.ksu.edu/bloodgood/mgmt%20595/10Ks/ksf/ksf95.htm ...

Manufacturing. Motor oils are made by blending additives with lubricant
stocks refined from crude oil. Quaker State's motor oils are made from lubricant
stocks produced at its Congo refinery located at Newell, West Virginia or from
lubricant stocks purchased from other refiners. The Congo refinery is specially
designed to maximize the production of lubricant stocks from Pennsylvania Grade
crude oil. Although it was built in 1971, the Congo refinery remains one of the
newer lubricant stock refineries in the United States, and it has sufficient
capacity to meet planned production requirements.

During the three years ended December 31, 1995, the following amounts of
Pennsylvania Grade crude oil were processed at the Congo refinery: [blah, blah, blah...]

and further down this webpage...

Availability of Pennsylvania Grade
crude oil depends primarily on the price which purchasers, including Quaker
State, are willing to pay, which in turn depends on the prevailing market prices
for all types of crude oil. The available supply of Pennsylvania Grade crude oil
has been declining for some time and is expected to continue to decline.
Although Quaker State believes that an adequate supply of Pennsylvania Grade
crude oil will be available for the Congo refinery for the near future, the
Company is studying the cost and availability of alternatives, should a shortage
occur.

Quaker State owns and operates a fleet of tank trucks to gather crude oil
produced in eastern Ohio and western Pennsylvania and transport it to the Congo
refinery or to a crude oil terminal and storage complex owned and operated by
Quaker State at Magnolia, Ohio. From there, crude oil flows through a pipeline
to the Congo refinery. Other crude oil is gathered by regulated pipeline
companies and barged to the Congo refinery.



Here's an excerpt from http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/3/display.html ...

Of the two types of crude oil, paraffin or methane series oil is the most prized, but it comprises less than 2% of the total world supplies. The "Industry Standard" is "Pennsylvania Crude" derived from oil wells in the state of Pennsylvania.

Here's an excerpt from http://www.bmwcca.org/tips/tiplube.shtml ...


Pennsylvania Grade Crude, from which Kendall Motor Oil is refined, has the highest VI of all oils produced and marketed. In its crude state, its VI is 95-100 and after refining its index averages 100-115. (Some Kendall oils have been refined to a VI as high as 140 without the addition of improving additives). In comparison with Pennsylvania Grade Crude, Mid-Continent shows a VI of 65-75 before refining and 80100 after refining; East Texas's comparative VIs are 50-60 and 80-95 and California's are 0-35 and 40-65.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

About Pennzoil & Quaker State, here's some history dialog from Quaker Sate's website, also can be fould almost verbatim @ Pennzoil's website...
On December 30, 1998, Quaker State® Corporation was merged with Pennzoil Company's marketing, manufacturing and fast oil change businesses to form Pennzoil-Quaker State® Company, a worldwide leader in consumer automotive products and vehicle care.

On October 1, 2002, the acquisition of Pennzoil-Quaker State® Company by Shell Oil Company, an affiliate of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group of Companies, was completed. In May of 2003, Pennzoil-Quaker State® Company began doing business as SOPUS Products. Combining Shell lubricant's networks and infrastructure and Pennzoil-Quaker State® Company's leading motor oil brands, portfolio of car care brands and Jiffy Lube stores, the new company is a leader in the U.S. lubricants and car care business.

So, I dunno. I dropped these oils from my zone of interest so long ago, I hadn't noticed their changes. In any case (pardon the pun) I'm stickin with Castrol GTX.

Ummm, you must have been thinking of Pennsylvania's most excellent supply of bituminus coal. That DID get depleted, except for the high-sulfer crap that nobody wants.

Hence, the abundent supply of Pennsylvania mushrooms, btw. Those old coal mines make for great mushroom farms, dontchya know...

Talk about crude oil? Check this out...

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/102spring2002_Web_projects/M.Sexton/

Canadian tar sands. As technology advances to make this more recoverable (when I was in college, it practically wasn't), Canada may well become the Middle-East of the future!

I think my dealer also uses Mobil (non-syn). So I too bought some from our local stores. I used Castrol for a short time because I was not sure what to use before I found out what the dealer uses.

Is there a different smell if Synthentic is used?

I do not know whether others have seen the Castrol "fine print". All the commercials you see about Castrol and out performing their competition only apply to 10W30 and 10w40. I thought it was applied across the their line until I read a little closer what was written in fine print.
Did anyone else see this also?

I can't quite figure this out - I check the oil pretty often and the lowest it gets on me is the bottom of the "OK" range on the dipstick. The little Mazda video says to fill it to the top of the range. Is a full quart too much, or it that the right amount to go from the bottom to the top? They should have said the video!

Does anyone know who makes the oil Mazda sells? Anyone have an opinion on brand recommendations? I've always been a fan of Castrol as it held it's viscosity better in older Consumer Reports testing. Lately it seems the differences are very small. I'll go with that unless someone suggests strongly something else or can tell me the mfgr of Mazda's 5W/20. thanks.

Mazda's 5W/20 is Motorcraft...same as Ford. I was told that the cars were manufactured around that oil. It was used during all the testing, etc. It is a semi-synthetic. I have used both Castrol GTX and Motorcraft. With Motorcraft the car doesn't burn as much oil and the dealer changes the oil at 5000 miles instead of 3000 miles (not sure that this is a good thing, but I have not had any problems yet with 24000 miles on the car).

OMG Parafin = wax YES. BUT not in the oil industry. There is no wax in motor oil. As oil additives break down it turns into tar. Its a natural process of the oil if you put some in a frying pan and bake it for hours it will turn into tar also. Sludge is caused by lack of oil changes and neglegent car owners. ALL brands will turn to garbage if you give them time to do it. With the curent GF-4 spec for motor oils you CANT buy a bad oil if its GF-4 rated. A GF-4 rated oil is ALMOST as good as a full syn.

As far as Castrol is concerned, read the disclaimer on a box of Castrol oil. Castrol north america is just a name for whatever brand oil they can buy cheap and bottle in a cool package. Then advertise the hell out of to make people buy it. NOT that it is a bad product if it meets the specs. Seriously look for the disclaimer on any case of Castrol all you have to do is look.
I love their slogan for their Syntec full syn oils " Out performs all CONVENTIONAL leading motor oils". Well DUH no shit a full syn outperfors a conventional oil go figure.

Well then, how do you explain this?

http://www.cobweb.net/~bug2/vft/oil_advanced.htm

"This region is part of what was once the most important oil fields in the United States; the Appalachian field. The oil-bearing rocks, primarily Devonian are located within a great structural trough that contains many subordinate folds. The pay sands range in depth from 400 to 4000 feet and produce high-grade (Pennsylvania grade) paraffin rich oil that is practically free of sulfur."



Too much paraffin separates from the oil and simply coats the innards of your engine.

I'm tired of this discussion. Here...

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=paraffin+in+pennsylvania+grade+crud e+oil&FORM=QBRE

Bon apetite.

I'm sticking with the junk I like, you stick with the junk you like. I've known of the problems with paraffin coating the innards of engines since 1974. It's like underarm deodorant. If you find one that you like and it works well for you, stick with it unless there is a real breakthrough in deodorant development. Synthetics are that for oils, but they cost too darn much for me. My MX-6 is 210,000+ miles old and still going strong - all Castrol non-syn.

Mazda's 5W/20 is Motorcraft...same as Ford. I was told that the cars were manufactured around that oil. It was used during all the testing, etc. It is a semi-synthetic. I have used both Castrol GTX and Motorcraft. With Motorcraft the car doesn't burn as much oil and the dealer changes the oil at 5000 miles instead of 3000 miles (not sure that this is a good thing, but I have not had any problems yet with 24000 miles on the car).

I was never certain of this, but it's reasonable to suspect that the factory fill is Motorcraft...

Anyway, I've been using the Motorcraft since the first oil change, and I think it's perfomed excellently. It's marketed as a "semi-synthetic" but it is most cetainly NOT a PAO (i.e., group IV base stock) synthetic motor oil. It's a blend of group II, II+, and III base stocks.

The term "synthetic" has become a pure marketing term ever since Castrol won their court case versus Mobil. It consequently allowed them to market their "syntec" oil, which is NOT a "traditional" PAO-based synthetic oil, as a "synthetic" oil based on its performance characteristics -- not its chemical composition. The term "synthetic" is based nowadays purely on how well the oil -- along with additive packages -- performs under various conditions.

I did a lot of research prior to choosing the Motorcraft. I did find that not all 5W20 oils pass the most rigorous engine condition testing -- that's the Ford spec. I tell people to look for BOTH 5W20 specs when purchasing a 5W20 oil -- the Honda spec AND the Ford spec. Ford almost single-handedly developed the new 5W20 grade of oil, so it makes sense that their tests are the industry standard.

The Motocraft 5W20 synth blend oil is actually produced by Conoco, so you can get the same oil from them if the Motorcraft is not available. But I can get the Motorcraft at Wally World (i.e., Wal Mart) for about $1.50 a quart, so it's pretty widely available.

I plan on sticking with the Motorcraft. It's a solid performer with a lot of R&D behind it, it's inexpensive, widely available, and most importantly, yields outstanding performance data -- based on the used oil analysis I've gotten back from Blackstone Labs.

My MX-6 is 210,000+ miles old and still going strong - all Castrol non-syn.

And you're not good about changing the oil in that car, are you? :D

And you're not good about changing the oil in that car, are you? :DYou are absolutely correct. I stink about keeping up with oil change intervals. My internal clock which at times tells me it's time to do oil changes is ALWAYS way too late (or I ignore it for too long). I'm just a lucky guy, I guess.

SpacerX, I like what you said about Motorcraft 5W20. You just about instantly converted me. Lemme think on this...

One thing I remember about Motorcraft - and it's pretty old information, so... I was informed by my ex-father-in-law (back when he was my father-in-law) that Motorcraft oil filters were the best in as far as how small in microns the filter filters-out contaminants. He was a Ford mechanic who won national prizes in Ford mechanic competitions (yeah, they have competitions), so you could say he really knew his stuff. What you're saying about their 5W20 oil kinda fits in that way, so... I'm interested.

Right now however, I get free routine maintenance for the life of the waranty period (2.5 more years to go) and they're using Castrol - based on what's on the service report.

If memory serves, the Motorcraft filters are well designed and manufactured by the a company that makes other high quality filters -- name escapes me, right now. The info sites below may have the info, but I haven't referenced them since I made my decsions about which oil/filter combo to go with.

Some of the most excellent info I found was on a motorcycle info site. The filters in some of the analysis were the same models, for the most part, that would be applicable to the RX8.

Here's the main site:
Motorcycle Info (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/)
Links to specific topics:
All About Oil (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html)
All About Oil Filters (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters)

I currently use the PureOne PL14612 from Purolator -- exact replacement size for our factory filter. When I got my UOA back from Blackstone, they recommended I stick with whatever filtration I'm currently using -- they said it obviously was performing exceedingly well!

SpacerX,
Seems we both use the same oil and the same filter :) though I did not run any analysis on mine. Are you sure about Motorcraft using Group II ? If they use Group III, they can get away with a Group I and also call it a synthetic blend. Except their profit margin would be higher. But I am not sure about the Ford spec - maybe Group I will fail that, if present....
Also, the Renesis engine was developed in Japan using probably 5W-30 oil. The US changed to 5W-20 for fuel economy issues. To this day I am not sure how extensively they tested it. The higher temperatures of this engine and the higher average RPMs sure do shear the oil faster, so starting with a thinner oil does not sound like a great idea to me... Maybe we should give-up the non-existant fuel economy and go with Motorcraft Semisynth in 5W-30 or 5W-40. Any ideas if those grades are approved by Ford?
I change oil every 4000-6000miles, depending on the season and car driving patern (short trips vs. hwy trips). How often do you change it?
The real test is to take the engine apart and measure wear on its parts - not sure how metals in used oil correlate for our engine. The limits any lab would compare the results with are from piston engines, but those have more metal parts / area. So I would guess that for the same metal content, our engines would be much worse in wear than a V6 or V8... That should depend on the total oil volume in the engine too. We have a small engine with a lot of oil - a lot is stuck in the coolers though.

SpacerX,
Seems we both use the same oil and the same filter :) though I did not run any analysis on mine. Are you sure about Motorcraft using Group II ? If they use Group III, they can get away with a Group I and also call it a synthetic blend. Except their profit margin would be higher.

Actually, I'm guessing on the constituents in the "blend." Obviously, it's all going to be proprietary, but I took my cues from a lot of other sources and some of the more experienced guys in the discussion forums located at Bob Is The Oil Guy (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi) .

All of those guys were guessing group II & group III as the primary ingredients. The main result of my research was determining that the oil has no PAO-based (group IV) base stock. Apparently it is highly refined and has a lot of additives. I highly doubt there's group I base stock. Again, that's based on my assessment of others' opinions. For me (and you, it seems) the most important thing is that the stuff performs well :D

SpacerX,
Also, the Renesis engine was developed in Japan using probably 5W-30 oil. The US changed to 5W-20 for fuel economy issues. To this day I am not sure how extensively they tested it. The higher temperatures of this engine and the higher average RPMs sure do shear the oil faster, so starting with a thinner oil does not sound like a great idea to me... Maybe we should give-up the non-existant fuel economy and go with Motorcraft Semisynth in 5W-30 or 5W-40. Any ideas if those grades are approved by Ford?

In order to have it listed in the North American owners manual, they would've had to test it with 5W20. I'm not entirely certain it was the motorcraft/conoco 5W20 Mazda used for its factory fill, but it's more probable than any other 5W20, simply because of their relation to FoMoCo.

A lot of the guys at the Bob's Oil forum also said the same things you're saying about exteme heat and breakdown under heavy duty conditions -- not just about the RX8, though. They were talking about F150/250/350 superduty truck engines performing a lot of towing and hauling and using the supposedly "whimpy" 5W20 oil. They were skeptical, and I was seriously considering going to a 5W30 oil, but the motorcraft 5W20 started returniing really good UOAs from the guys with the trucks -- they were sold. So was I. It's actually a lot tougher oil than the 5W20 grade might imply.

SpacerX,
I change oil every 4000-6000miles, depending on the season and car driving patern (short trips vs. hwy trips). How often do you change it?
The real test is to take the engine apart and measure wear on its parts - not sure how metals in used oil correlate for our engine. The limits any lab would compare the results with are from piston engines, but those have more metal parts / area. So I would guess that for the same metal content, our engines would be much worse in wear than a V6 or V8... That should depend on the total oil volume in the engine too. We have a small engine with a lot of oil - a lot is stuck in the coolers though.
I know we don't have to change the oil very often, but I do it anyway. I've been "changing" the oil and filter at 2500 mile intervals. Probably overdoing it, but I enjoy it, actually. Kinda like how you enjoy washing/waxing the car. Plus, at that interval, I've not had to add any additional oil between changes. I'm nearing the 10K mile mark, and I'm thinking of switching to the recommended 5K mile oil/filter change after that. Depends on how the UOA comes back from Blackstone.

I'm still on the learning curve with the differences between a rotary and piston engine. Actually, Blackstone has quite an extensive databse from rotary engines in the past -- the oil analysis, that is. So when they tell me my engine/oil/filter are performing well, I trust them. I imagine RotaryGod or some of the other rotary gurus on the board who've actually taken engines apart would have some insights on what a "good" rotary engine should look like after many years of dedicated service.

Regarding wear metals -- I got really good feedback -- kudos, really -- from the Blackstone guys. They really liked the filter I was using (PureOne PL14612 -- the one you're using, too!). Having a good filter can make all the difference when it comes to contaminants and wear metals. Because of the fact that we really only "change" half of the oil capacity every time you drain/fill, the filter becomes EXTREMELY important.

SpacerX,

To add to your argument, there was recently a motorcraft filter cutup thread posted on bobs.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002244

As for the thicker vs thinner debate...its pretty much been debunked now. Though the original reason that 5w-20 oils were spec'd was "CAFE" based, the primary manufacturers made sure to setup a set of specifications that were above and beyond the current base stock oils. Most of the 5w-20 oils on the market currently are actually superior in most aspects to 30 wt oils of yesteryear.

I'm sure in another 5 yrs, everyone will be bitching that 0w-5 is too thin to protect. :)

Good link, Crossbow. Thanx.

Methinks I will have to deconstruct my PureOne PL14612 filter in a few hundred miles when I cross the 10K mark...

Concur with your remarks on the 5W20 oils. They really are performing well beyond what conventional wisdom would've originally expected.