In the September/October issue of The Star , the publication of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, the following is reported.

"E-Class Act
Mercedes-Benz USA is replacing nearly 2000 new E-Class cars because the navigation feature of the Comand system - paid for when cars were ordered - was not installed and could not be retrofitted as planned. Due to a delay involving a switch in suppliers, new cars were delivered without this feature, which was to be retrofitted. That was later deemed impractical. Affected owners can exchange their current E-Class car-whatever its mileage or condition-for a brand-new one with the complete system. Buyers who wanted the system but did not order it will receive a $3,250 credit toward their next purchase of a Mercedes-Benz."

That raises the question in my mind that if Mazda later finds 9 or 12 hp in the Renesis and can meet all the required EPA standards, will current owners be provided the benefit of that fix at no cost? Even if we take the current deal of $500 and free maintenance?
Granted Mercedes E-Class cars cost twice what the RX-8 does, but the RX-8's importance to Mazda should be no less than the E-Class is to MBUSA...IMHO.

Mazda, are you listening/reading? I truly love my car, but this is about principle, not horsepower. This is about owner loyalty.

Would Mazda ever replace the whole car? HELL NO, this problems stems to more that 2,000 RX-8's. Besides once you take the buy back or 500+warranty you ain't getting squat from them ever again.

Besides there is a difference between Mazda and Mercedes a BIG one.

Thats a scary thought, an engine is far more expensive to replace than a navigation system. Are you suggesting (using your hypothetical scenario) that Mazda replace the engine, or even have the user the option to replace his car with another one?

That would require some major financial resources, something that Mazda does not have.

I understand the principle, and you make a good point. I just dont think Mazda can feasibly do that. Even if they did have the money, they would have to get approval from parent company Ford first.

EDIT: What is more feasible is an ECU swap/re-programming to gain HP. That would certainly be far less costly than an engine replacement.

In my opinion, without a doubt.

The $500 & free maint. period would be compensation for the aggravation of all of this. A "Mazda appologizes for selling you this brand new flagship high dollar car with a major functional error. Although it is now fixed, we realize that we have seriously undermined our goodwill with you and our other faithful RX-8 owners. In an effort to repay you for your troubles in putting-up with our shortcomings, Mazda wants you to keep what we have already given you and also to schedule to bring in your RX-8 for its much needed recall work. Since it is a recall, this work will be entirely free of charge."

I've been not only been hoping for this to happen, I have been and continue to be expecting it to happen in the very near future. I can't believe that Mazda will want us to have to go to 3rd party people to fix-up their f#@k-up, $500 spending money or not. They better be working on this problem 24/7.

edit: You quick-draw guys might want to ponder before you post, just a little sometimes. It won't take a whole new car, or even a whole new engine. Heck, it could be just a different set of spark plugs. Who knows? And I'm betting it's gonna fix mpg along with hp in one fell swoop.

Replace the car? Replace the engine? I don't think so. BUT, Ford is a much larger company than Mercedes-Benz, even with Chrysler. Do you know what Ford brand is the second largest seller world-wide after Ford labeled cars and trucks? Check out Ford's Annual Report. I'll give you a hint. The brand name starts with an "M" and it ain't Mercury. In fact, world-wide, Mazda sells more cars than Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Range Rover, Aston-Martin, et al, COMBINED! So, what I'd like to see is that if, for example, Mazda comes up with a fix say in 2005 (next year), that the fix would be provided to all RX-8 owners at no cost. That wouldn't break Mazda or Ford. Maybe it would just mean replacing the ECU...

That may be true, but also they don't have the prestige that Mercedes has. Plus and I make this point again, once you take either of their offers you have just settled the whole issue with them. Like I said, I wouldn't count on squat from them in fixes towards this issue once you have signed the buyback or 500service offer.

Originally posted by TybeeRX-8
Replace the car? Replace the engine? I don't think so. BUT, Ford is a much larger company than Mercedes-Benz, even with Chrysler. Do you know what Ford brand is the second largest seller world-wide after Ford labeled cars and trucks? Check out Ford's Annual Report. I'll give you a hint. The brand name starts with an "M" and it ain't Mercury. In fact, world-wide, Mazda sells more cars than Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Range Rover, Aston-Martin, et al, COMBINED! So, what I'd like to see is that if, for example, Mazda comes up with a fix say in 2005 (next year), that the fix would be provided to all RX-8 owners at no cost. That wouldn't break Mazda or Ford. Maybe it would just mean replacing the ECU...

Dream on if you think Ford will do anything. I owned a 1985 Cougar. It had a lot of problems with stalling. I would take it in and they would give it a tune up, replace the injectors etc etc etc. This went on for about 10 years. Got rid of the car and guess what... Ford is SUED and loses the case. They knew all along that the computer module would 'warp' when warm and cause cars to stall. It was in so many cars Ford did not want to do a recall. Nothing for me though....

This is my biggest problem with Mazda. They are 'owned' by a firm that I do not want to deal with..... But dang that car looks good.......

Originally posted by TybeeRX-8
Replace the car? Replace the engine? I don't think so. BUT, Ford is a much larger company than Mercedes-Benz, even with Chrysler. Do you know what Ford brand is the second largest seller world-wide after Ford labeled cars and trucks? Check out Ford's Annual Report. I'll give you a hint. The brand name starts with an "M" and it ain't Mercury. In fact, world-wide, Mazda sells more cars than Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Range Rover, Aston-Martin, et al, COMBINED! So, what I'd like to see is that if, for example, Mazda comes up with a fix say in 2005 (next year), that the fix would be provided to all RX-8 owners at no cost. That wouldn't break Mazda or Ford. Maybe it would just mean replacing the ECU...


I apologize, since you used the Mercedes example thats what I assumed you meant. I also did not know that Mazda was Ford's most profitable division. I thought they were struggling financially. Thanks for the education. I learn new things everyday!

Given these facts, it would be wonderful if Mazda could do what Mercedes has done, if they indeed were able to gain HP.

"That may be true, but also they don't have the prestige that Mercedes has. Plus and I make this point again, once you take either of their offers you have just settled the whole issue with them. Like I said, I wouldn't count on squat from them in fixes towards this issue once you have signed the buyback or 500service offer."

I don't buy the "prestige" thing. At the top end, Ford has Aston-Martin, Jaguar and at the bottom, the Ford Focus. Benz has themselves (well, Maybach) at the top and Neon at the bottom end.

I'm not really counting on "squat" and I know that since I accepted the offer, I will not be legally entitled to anything. BUT, Mazda could do the "right thing." Benz didn't have to take the cars back, regardles of mileage/condition and give owners a new car. They could have just refunded the cost of the system they did not supply.

Originally posted by poison123
That may be true, but also they don't have the prestige that Mercedes has. Plus and I make this point again, once you take either of their offers you have just settled the whole issue with them. Like I said, I wouldn't count on squat from them in fixes towards this issue once you have signed the buyback or 500service offer. If I were to sign the buyback offer, I seriously doubt if I would be too worried about the "fixes towards this issue".

See what I mean?!? Say it, don't spray it.

Originally posted by Racer X-8

See what I mean?!? Say it, don't spray it.

HAHAHHAAH, for some reason that made me crack up

Originally posted by TybeeRX-8
Replace the car? Replace the engine? I don't think so. BUT, Ford is a much larger company than Mercedes-Benz, even with Chrysler. Do you know what Ford brand is the second largest seller world-wide after Ford labeled cars and trucks? Check out Ford's Annual Report. I'll give you a hint. The brand name starts with an "M" and it ain't Mercury. In fact, world-wide, Mazda sells more cars than Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Range Rover, Aston-Martin, et al, COMBINED! So, what I'd like to see is that if, for example, Mazda comes up with a fix say in 2005 (next year), that the fix would be provided to all RX-8 owners at no cost. That wouldn't break Mazda or Ford. Maybe it would just mean replacing the ECU...

But all of these brands together do not sell a fraction of what mercedes/chrysler sells. Ford is in deep financial crisis, which makes madas offer very surprising to me. Ecu replacement is cheaper then what mazda is offering, If it could be done, I think they would be doing it.

By the way, this is far more then other companys have done. Ford took a looooong time with the mustang issue, and nissan did squat with there little HP problem.

The mercedes issue is not as easy to fix as you think. My understanding is that a LOT of work would have to be done to the cars to get the nav to function. I have been told the MB is not using that nav system at all due to its problems, hence the replacement.

Just saw the MazdaSpeed Protege ECU re-mapping thread. New thread. That problem is much older than the RX-8 problem & Mazda is TODAY airing the fix to the general public. I think it's in the lounge. What am I implying?

There is an official fix coming soon, and a new burn.

Mercedes is giving missled buyers a new car with the option they asked for (thats it). Mazda is giving you your whole investment back and allowing you to buy again or buy something else after a 2000 mile test drive. There are people out there taking the buy back for other reasons than the HP, like they started making payments, and found out they could not afford it, and that is allowed.

Maybe I'm missing some hidden point here about customer satifaction, but I see the Mazda deal as much more accomodating to all involved than Mercedes.

Those with Mercedes who wanted the nav, but didn't order it get a discount on their next Mercedes purchase. That kind of reminds me of the small print in the corner of a coupon. (Cash Value 1/20 of a cent). Again Mazda's 500 dollars and free scheduled maintenance has immediate cash value and ongoing support.

If the point of this thread was to show how Mercedes treats their customers better and are a classier act, I missed it, and just don't see it.

I think what Tybee was saying is, say after a year from now (say 2005+), if Mazda somehow manages to increase the HP to its original 247, that they should provide a retroactive "fix" to owners of the 2004 model. I say" fix", only for the sake of this argument. I think this sort of thing falls more on an "upgrade" rather than a "fix", but I digress.

The buy-back option for Mazda was a time limited option. If you bought the RX-8 after a certain date, you are no longer entitled to the buy-back. What Mercedes did with theirs was allow folks to either swap the system, or get a new car, irregardless of miles.

So I believe what Tybee wants if IF Mazda upgrades the HP, provide a "no-cost" solution to previous owners.

The offer from Mazda is a stong one. Missing some HP, and people still being happy with the car in spite of (and not knowing of) the missing HP...a buy back offer or money/maintenance IS a big deal.

Mazda management is now a wholly seperate entity. Most Ford execs are now out of Mazda, although the financial responsibilities to Ford still exist.

After talking to the regional Mazda rep at my dealership (Mazda corporate is very concerned regarding the owners of the RX8), there are strong hints that those who keep the car will get some sort of fix. Plenty had been written/said about the problem being the ECU. That's a pretty simple swap that can be done at the dealer level. I get the distinct impression that Mazda is going to treat those of us who opted to keep our cars with kid gloves. Those that opt to give there's back, of course, will have no recourse with Mazda. This will all start to be revealed sometime after the Oct 1 date. Regional rep said that Mazda will be offering other things to those of us who keep the RX8. Don't know what that might be, but I'm willing to stick it out. Nothing like an entire engine swap will be required.

Benz, while being marketed as a premium brand, is going through their own problems now with the precipitous drop in the recent quality/reliability of their products. Plus, with their "C" coupes entering the heart of the high $20s-low $30s price point where quality powerhouses like Honda and Toyota reside, Mercedes is premium in name only. I don't know of anyone the least bit knowledgeable about cars who views Mercedes as the "end all to beat all" regarding quality/reliability...a reputation that they had in the past, but don't enjoy today.

Ford, indeed owns some of the most prestigious brands in the automotive world, and will have to act accordingly.

I would think that any fix, if one is provided by Mazda, will be offered at the same time as they announce a "higher powered" version of the RX8...maybe the '05 models? I would guess it would be offered to the people who kept their RX8s instead of the buyback option. Those that buy between now and the new model year buy based on the "corrected figures" on the new MSRP stickers and may or may not be part of such an offer.

Of course, this is all speculation and based on non-binding conversations with the regional Mazda rep.

Originally posted by RX8-U-UP
If the point of this thread was to show how Mercedes treats their customers better and are a classier act, I missed it, and just don't see it.

I agree with RX8-U-UP. If you're trying to say the MB deal is better I don't think so. Essentially, Mazda also is letter you exchange cars or walk away from the deal entirely. Or, keep the car with compensation, an alternative that MB doesn't offer. I think Mazda is being pretty flexible here. Not to mention, for those so inclined, you can reject both offers and still take legal action of your own, though I don't think you'd get very far with that.

If Mazda is smart they will recognize that this group of people that accept the offer and keep the car are a captive, self-selected core audience for their future program developers.

We are passionate about this car. We are interested in the kind of future-think this company engages in. And in marketing-speak we are "sympathetic". We are open to useful conversation. With very little investment they have the rare opportunity to get loads of real-world info, and even create loyalty. Not a whole lotta loyalty in the car biz.

They will solve this problem. Giving the solution to we owners will go a long way. Opening up this dialog conduit could be great for owners and Mazda's future efforts. Mazda is one year+ up on the other four seat sports cars coming, at least. You gotta give 'em credit.

Mazda, I hope you're listening. This is a classic win-win.

RM

I don't know how many of you have called the 800 RX8 Customer Service line, but I have contacted them a half dozen times going through the options of THE LETTER.

They have always logged a record of my call and always know what had been discussed previously.

From where I sit, they are logging data on each "LETTER" owner and making sure that whatever decision they make is fully understood by Mazda. They already know I'm keeping mine and are very interested in what I want from Mazda.

I believe that the 3,000 or so initial purchasers will have a lot of "voice" with Mazda if you decided to keep your car.

Last I checked, there were only about 2% opting for a buyback. That figures out to be roughly about 60 cars actually being bought back by Mazda. Of course, as the OCT 1 deadline gets closer, that number may change.

Yep, and all of your emails are kept very nicely too.

rx8orders@mazdausa.com

I can't really disagree with much that has been said here, except that giving a customer a new $50,000 E-Class in exchange for one that has, say 20k miles on it is a far more expensive way to address the problem. This is so given the noted decline in M-B quality in recent years. The last really good M-B I owned was a '92 400SE (aside from my wife's 22 year old designed and hand-built G500 that I hate to drive) and I don't want to tell you what it costs new, but it was more than a new S500 today!

My whole point is/was that I really don't give a squat about the 9 or 12 HP (take your pick), but that it is more a question of principle and owner loyalty. Over the years, I have consistantly recommended Mazda cars to those who asked and were considering Accords or Camrys (or other Honda/Toyota cars), simply because I think they are of equal quality and are a better value. At least four of those followed my advice and were happy they did. I even recently convinced my oldest to go for a Mazda6 when getting rid of his Toyota Tundra. He did and he's delighted with the car. This is what I mean by loyalty to the owners. Yes, I'm happy with the $500 and free service and I love the car. But, I'm just "miffed" that Mazda would do again what they did with the Miata in '90 and just let it go so easily. So, as someone mentioned, I do hope that those of us who keep our cars will be somehow rewarded for our loyalty, beyond a "kiss" and pat on the butt. If not, so be it. I'll live with the disappoint, not in the car but in Mazda and will think twice about recommending them again.
[BTW, I do think that M-B makes some of the best engineered cars in the world, but as the local service manager said to me, they need a lesson from the Japanese in how to do electronics, since that's where most of their failures occur! Go figure... And their failures are truly related to accountants and marketeers. It used to be that they built the best car they could and then put a price on it. If you could afford it, you bought it. But this belongs some where else.]

Originally posted by Tweety-nator
IThe buy-back option for Mazda was a time limited option. If you bought the RX-8 after a certain date, you are no longer entitled to the buy-back. What Mercedes did with theirs was allow folks to either swap the system, or get a new car, irregardless of miles.

.

My understanding ( from a friend who has a MB) is that the nav does not work, can not be made to work, and can not be replaced. Only option to to swap the car.

By the way, my sister in law has a C class "sport coupe" Really crap, the 8 is better in EVERY way. Plus she paid 3,000 More for it! My brother has heartburn every time he is in my car.

Originally posted by klegg


My understanding ( from a friend who has a MB) is that the nav does not work, can not be made to work, and can not be replaced. Only option to to swap the car.

By the way, my sister in law has a C class "sport coupe" Really crap, the 8 is better in EVERY way. Plus she paid 3,000 More for it! My brother has heartburn every time he is in my car.

Wow really? I wonder if Mercedes fired the engineer who made the original Nav for such a costly mistake.

I agree on the RX-8 interior. The two-tone leather interior really makes the car stand-out, in my opinion.

The nav was not in house, they switched to a new co, so I am told.

If you look at the new E-class dash, clearly it will not accomodate the Comand system used in other Benzes, e.g., S-Class, ML, G-500, etc. It is a CD-Rom system and they are now changing over to a DVD based system...like the RX-8!!!

Originally posted by poison123
Would Mazda ever replace the whole car? HELL NO

How do you figure? They will buy back your car, and return every penny you spent on it. That sounds like HELL YES - you're certainly free to go buy another RX-8, and possibly make a better deal on it. You're also free to go buy an entirely different car, an option which Mercedes isn't offering. Furthermore, their cashback offer is only valid if you buy an new Mercedes down the road, not worth anything on your current car or if you buy something else. Some deal - the Mazda offer is actually far better!

Regards,
Gordon