Well, more like a "Dyno Evening," but that's not the point. :)

In the interests of the ongoing horsepower debate, as well as to settle my own curiousity, I have booked the use of the Dynomight (www.dynomight.ca) DynoJet chassis dyno for this Friday, Sept. 12th at 6PM.

My self, and Jasper the 2nd (plus friend) have already confirmed our attendance, and I have started putting word out to the local dealerships that I know to make their customers aware as well.

If anybody else in the region is interested, drop me a message, and we'll get you on the list.

The details:
Cost: Currently, the worst-case price is $60 + taxes. With the 3 cars we have attending right now, this is the cheapest route. However, with a few more cars, it will be cheaper to move to a per-hour price, and the price will come down from there.

Location: Burnside Industrial Park, Dartmouth NS
10 Ilsley Avenue, Unit 15. The awning out
front says "Master". The dyno willl be set up at the side of the building.

Date and Time: As above, Friday Sept. 12, 6PM.

Great News, Redshift ! Please let us know what the results are like.

Oh by the way, you know how some of us are saying they are feeling a definite boost of power above 6250 RPM while some other owners are saying their car start losing power above 6250 RPM ? Can you please maybe make a note of which car has which behaviour according to their owners before the Dyno Test ? ( and also their average fuel consumption numbers please ? ) I dying to get some data together and try to draw some conclusion from them, thanks a lot !

Any of these cars GS's?

No, mine and Redshift's are both GTs.

There is a GS around here but I don't know the person, other than his name.

I don't notice a drop in power after the third injectors kick in, but I don't know if I'm getting as much kick as I should be either. I'm still getting some soot on the tailpipes though, so I'm assuming it is still running rich at the top end.
I usually get about 13 to 15 L/100km normal driving (mixed town and highway, mostly short drives). I did a couple of two hour drives this weekend (mostly highways and back roads at highway speeds) at got a 12.1 L/100km, my best so far.
I've got over 4000 km on the car now, btw.

Smoker: No problem. We'll gather up and pass on as much information as we can. DynoMight just bought a brand new A/F sensor as well, so I think I'm going to pay up the extra $10 or so that costs so we have that information as well.

As for fuel economy, around town I've been averaging 16-17L/100km. My best, on a long 6th gear highway trip (Halifax to Moncton and back) was around 12L/100km.

As for the soot on the tailpipes Jasper mentioned, my tips are black within a day.
Car has just over 4600km on it as of last night.
Got my oil changed at 1099km. I've added a full 1L worth of oil since then.

Good job guys. It would definitely be more worthwhile if all three of you measured the A/F ratio too so we can have a comparison between the cars.

I'm planning on getting the A/F measured as well.
My friend's A/F ratio probably won't be helpful. He's dynoing his Civic. :)

I put in a call to my dealership and asked them to give the owner of the GS a call and see if he'd be interested as well.

I called Mills yesterday to contact the person who bought their GT, and I'm going to give Steele a call today.
I know City Mazda in Halifax sold a Silver one, but I don't know anybody at that dealership, and I've never actually seen the car around.

Jasper_the_2nd and Redshift, thanks a lot in advance for your efforts.

So when you guys are done, hopefully we can draw some relationships and conclusions between: HP, A/F ratio, Fuel Octane Level, Fuel Consumption and maybe model (GS/GT) type.

Can't wait ! :D

Note to self: Must stop assuming car dealers know ANYTHING about actual cars.

On the way back from a meeting today I passed by City Mazda in Halifax, so on the spur of the moment I thought I'd stop in an pass the word. Sales Manager uy looked completely baffled at the whole concept of a Dyno..(*blink*..What's a Dyno? *blink*) ... anyway.. he was nice enough.. pretty dismissive and standoffish though.
Glad that isn't the dealership I'm going to have to deal with (for however long that may be...)
I left my contact information so that he could pass it on to his customers.. judging from his reactions he won't bother though.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this Friday night. Should answer a lot of questions in my mind.
Still working to recruit some more cars. We'll let you guys know.

You're still surprised that dealers know very little about the cars? So far, Steele in Dartmouth was the only dealership I've found that gave me a sense that "car fanatics" work there....

Anxious to hear the dyno results, well, more curious actually. I decided to enjoy my car that first morning at Steele. I'm an engineer, so fuel efficiency and hp are a curiosity, but probably not going to have much of an impact on my enjoyment of the car. On the drive from Halifax to St. John's I got 12.1 L/100km, around town I'm getting high 13's to low 14's - consistent with Redshift.

My pipes are havily sooted withina day as well - I'd expect some, but this is a lot. More evidence of this rich fuel map for the first x km. Is there any way we can learn what mileage the 8 will switch to the leaner mixture? Or even if this is real?

I have to say, I am somewhat jealous of you guys being able to get together with other 8's. I'm still the only owner in my area - although I did hear a rumor that there was a GS in central Nfld somewhere...

Looking forward to the dyno results.

bg parsons3,

You're just a "short" boat ride away, you should come over!
It's only 10 or 12 hours to get here, isn't it? :)

It would be cool if you could though...

Barry, glad to see you are still alive! I was just thinking the other day I hadn't seen you in a while. I figured your RX had gotten personal with a Moose. :)
I hadn't really forgotten that people at dealerships rarely know anything about cars, but I always try to start the conversation assuming they aren't idiots... unlike the way they tend to treat their customers. (But I agree, people at Steele seem like they sell cars because they like them, not because they coudn't get a real-estate license...)

News: He's got to check his Golf Schedule, but it looks like we have a Reg GT coming out Friday night, and I'm working with Tim at Steele on a 4th RX-8. No word back from Truro yet.

Mileage: Got gas last night. First full tank with my daily commute now that traffic has returned to "normal" after folks went back to school. 14.8L/100km...

Will miss out on this one .... get some pics if you get a bunch of 8's together. I'm thinking a shot on the waterfront with George's Island in the background - be a nice shot! :)

I'm definately bringing my digital camera to get some shots.
We'll have to see about getting some nice posed shots, but it'll depend on the light conditions I guess.

Just an update. I haven't heard anything from the Red GS owner, so it looks like it will probably just be the two cars (8 and Civic) coming up from New Glasgow.

Any word from Truro yet?

And I'll have my camera there too. And I think Craig is bringing his video camera...

Back from the dyno. Looks like Redshift hasn't made it online yet.

We had 3 RX-8s, all GTs. My silver, Redshift's blue, and a red.
Also a selection of Hondas, a Feiro, and some crazy racing bike.
The red RX-8 owner's wife had a Beemer, but we couldn't convince her to put it up on the dyno.

We don't have the data files yet, since the dyno owner will be emailing them, but I have some printouts, which will do for the moment.

The graphs look remarkably like the U.S. ones. Our numbers were a little lower, which is probably just a variance with conditions and the dyno (it is a portable, so I'd assume it's a little less accurate, or succeptable to being a bit off compared to a fixed one). Or it could just be the Canadian HP. :D

The max rwhp from any of the runs was was 168.3 with 125.3 for torque. Just happened to be my car. :D Redshift's was about 1 lower on HP and .5 lower on torque. And the red, which had significantly less km on it (I think it was around 2500) was a bit lower at 158.3 HP and 123.5 torque.

And the graph shapes looks just like what we've seen, Nice and smooth, bump at 4k for the secondary ports, big bump at 6250 for the tertiary ports but HP is still smooth, then 7200 big bump, for additional air flow or something, and things just go ugly.

We each also did a run with the air/fuel sensor on. Again, the graphs are basically identical (which is a good thing).
Ratio starts at about 15, drops to 12 by 4000 rpm and stays between 12 and 13 right up to 9000 rpm.

Sounds great so far, I look forward to seeing all the data.

Did you happen to do test with different octanes? I think that would be an interesting comparison.

168 WHP is a total disaster from 237 HP engine let alone 247 HP engine! That is with a 6-speed manual transmission that should have losses no more 15%-17%.

This is a more proof that Mazda is still lying. if you do not file a class action suit for this, I do not know what you are going to do 1 month from now.

Nashua.

I believe everyone was running premium, but I'm not sure.

A definately think I'll be calling Mazda on monday, to see what they'll say.

BTW, I put up some pictures, including a couple of mpegs of the red RX-8 and a Civic doing runs on the Dyno, on renesis.ca The sounds isn't the best, but you can still here them wind up pretty well. The mic in my digital camera isn't the best. :(

I'm including a link, since I put the pictures in a sub-album, and for some reason it isn't showing up in my main gallery.

http://www.renesis.ca/gallery/album02?&page=1

I am SOOOooooo glad I sent in my letter!

Originally posted by canzoomer
I am SOOOooooo glad I sent in my letter!

Believe me, so are the reast of us.

Originally posted by canzoomer
I am SOOOooooo glad I sent in my letter!


I am so glad YOU did as well !!

bgparsons3:

I might be driving my 8 up to NF (my homeland!) sometime next summer, if it's any consolation.. ;)

Originally posted by canzoomer
I am SOOOooooo glad I sent in my letter!

Good for you !
Don't forget to disable your forum account too while you are at it !

Originally posted by NashuaCLS
if you do not file a class action suit for this, I do not know what you are going to do 1 month from now.

Maybe he'll just take his 168 whp car to the track and beat your best ever quarter mile time and trap speed. :p (per posted time slips of 14.5 and 96 mph for RX-8s). :p

Regards,
Gordon

Not to change the subject...:)

Here are my data files from the dyno.

Originally posted by Jasper_the_2nd
Not to change the subject...:)

Here are my data files from the dyno.

What application should I use to open the files inside your ZIP file? :confused:

Originally posted by Jasper_the_2nd
Not to change the subject...:)

Here are my data files from the dyno.

Can you recommend a program to open those with?

Originally posted by ZoomZoom


What application should I use to open the files inside your ZIP file? :confused:

Damn ZoomZoom beat me to this

The only one I have is the one the Dyno guy has available for download. You can get it here:

http://www.dynomight.ca/downloads/

You'll want the RunViewer.

There may be some other ones listed in some of the dyno discussions in the tech area.

gee whiz, can we maybe get a screen cap of the graphs. Seems kinda silly for everyone to download and install this software just to see someone's dyno charts.

Originally posted by B-Nez
gee whiz, can we maybe get a screen cap of the graphs. Seems kinda silly for everyone to download and install this software just to see someone's dyno charts.

Done!

Same old 7K scrambled eggs mess.

You know, the automatics were supposed to be 210HP at 7100, with 7500 redline.

And how does this differ?

Oh, right, higher redline.

7300 rpm is where the variable dynamic intake valve is supposed to open, right? And for some reason that seems to be where things get ugly.

I'd like to see an auto dynoed some time to see if they get the same mess after that valve opens for them, at 5800 rpm.

Canzoomer, give it up. You've made your decision, leave well enough alone!

Oh for God's sake.

Go back to your cozy little cocoon, fool.
If you can do nothing but make personal attacks to somebody for pointing out a fact that we have seen in other dyno results, then you are truly clueless.

I commented that these dyno results show the same problem we have seen before:

At around 7K the engine is going whacko.
And that is where we are losing our power.

What I was pointing out is that in the auto transmission version they intentionally cut off at around 7K, and that there ARE no third set of intake ports.

In these dynos we see those ports doing nothing ( except maybe killing our fuel consumption). The curve is quite smooth to this point. We see some gain when the second set of ports opens around 4K. It is at the opening of the third port set that the curve not only falls, but jumps around as it drops off.

This is fair comment on the dyno results. Perhaps it has been mentioned before, but i was just commenting on this being shown again.

Do YOU see more power over 7K?
Do you SEE the dyno curve going all wiggly and falling?
Is it not OBVIOUS??

So, to put it clearly, just in case you did not catch it:

Piss off !!

Canzoomer,

There is no doubt you are entitled to your opinion, so am I.
Your posts originally were refreshing and welcome, but now you have resorted to sarcasm and name calling.

We all joined this Forum because of our love for the 8.
You must have too. Can you not see that you can be objective without being sarcastic and condescending? Just tone it down a bit.

There was a point where it seemed you had something to say in every thread I looked at, all with the same tone.

What are you trying to do, convert others to your thinking?

The 8 is far from perfect, and Mazda didn't help with all their screw ups. But I have owned alot of cars, and none have put a smile on my face and given such a great value for the money.

Originally posted by canzoomer

I commented that these dyno results show the same problem we have seen before:

At around 7K the engine is going whacko.
And that is where we are losing our power.

What I was pointing out is that in the auto transmission version they intentionally cut off at around 7K, and that there ARE no third set of intake ports.

In these dynos we see those ports doing nothing ( except maybe killing our fuel consumption). The curve is quite smooth to this point. We see some gain when the second set of ports opens around 4K. It is at the opening of the third port set that the curve not only falls, but jumps around as it drops off.



I agree with you about the dyno result. After 7k the extra ports doesn't seem to do anything. I wonder if that port helps with torque at all?

What gear was this sheet done in?

Canzoomer the problem is this: you have roughly 350 posts, but most of the last 150-200 of them are saying the same bloody thing in different threads over and over again. We are here as enthusiasts. We understand there is obviously an issue with the dyno tests on the car. You jumping around and throwing it in people's faces over and over isn't helping the situation any.

Here here

Originally posted by MyRxBad


I agree with you about the dyno result. After 7k the extra ports doesn't seem to do anything. I wonder if that port helps with torque at all?

What gear was this sheet done in?

If you download the data you can look at the torque curve, which goes just as crappy after 7k . Or just check any of the US dyno results that show torque, they look the same as mine.

All runs were done in third. We tried a run in 5th (the 1 to 1 ratio gear) on Redshift's car, but there was no appreciable difference in the data, according to the Dyno guy. Hopefully the Dyno guy will send Redshift that run as well as the others and Redshift will post his data whenever he happens to be on again.

Guys please don't hi-jack this thread again.....

Canzoomer, please read my comments for you here:
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=121145#post121145


Hey, thanks guys for posting your Dyno results. Just wondering any plans to dyno your cars again next year after everyone have gotten over 20,000kms on them ? (as advised by Mazda)

Originally posted by Smoker
Hey, thanks guys for posting your Dyno results. Just wondering any plans to dyno your cars again next year after everyone have gotten over 20,000kms on them ? (as advised by Mazda)

I thought they had mentioned 10,000 km in the discussion on mileage?
Assuming I keep the 8 past Oct 1, which is likely (although I took a 350z out for a drive at lunch, but the the Roadster is a touch expensive) I'm planning on have 10,000 km on it before the end of Oct., so I'm planning on another dyno run just before I put it away for the winter.

That's great Jasper. We'll definitely be looking forward to your result from that 10K+ dyno.

Also, it will be interesting to see if people will start to feel a difference in terms of power once they go past 10K.

(the RX-7 guys said their ECU flip over at 10,000km right ? or was it 20,000km ? anyone knows ? )

So, on to doing something about it (maybe).
I have been talking with A'pex And one of their dealers/ performance shops up here in Canada.

To state what their products do, they have a unit which "piggy-backs" the ECU and sensors, and can take over some/all the fuel and ignition control.

They are interested in getting sensor info and other data on an RX-8, and have asked if anyone in Tokyo could be interested in letting them do some testing.
Through a friend we have a candidate in Japan to do this now. He is supposed to have had his car in today ( which, due to time differences was over this morning).

However the Jspec cars don't have the problem, making that testing of only limited usefulness.
So i am taking my car to their Canadian western dealer/installer tomorrow morning for a session of testing and logging.

Anyway, long and short of it, if the car can be fixed by their equipment, and in a fashion that is easily and tracelessly removed for dealer servicing, are there people on this list interested?

As for the comments, look guys, there is a problem.
How much it affects you is of course determined by your goals, desires, and needs.
But simply trying to wish it away will not cut it.
Some of us want to do something, so a little truth once in a while is useful, OK?

I apologize for snapping at Rotarian yesterday, but I made some observations on what we were seeing. I think they were valid, and others here seem to think so as well. I did not need another mindless session of sniping at my butt for making that observation.

Frankly, those who so strongly disagree really puzzle me.
IF you are completely happy with what the power why hang around on threads like this? Morbid curiosity or something?

Anyway, I am still trying to do something to make the car what it was supposed to be. Frankly with or without anyhelp is pretty irrelelevant, but there are somethings that can be done to help.

If anyone is interested we need a shop manual as they are not yet available in Canada ( heck my dealer parts guy commented today he sure wished they could get one!)

I hear that at least some in the USA have been able to obtain one, so if anyone knows where one can be bought, I would appreciate it if you let us know.

We are also looking fo the part # for an ECU.
If we can get a Canada or US tuned ECU to send to Japan, they can check it to see what it is doing at various conditions. This too would be invaluable.

Maybe I am more motivated than the average bear around here, but if we can get what we were told we would get, it would make the car a lot more interesting.

So, in the spirit of co-operation, maybe next time you see a post about people discussing the problems, and feel they are slighting your pride and joy, bite your tongue a second.
Some people ARE trying to do something. Maybe we will not succeed, but it will likely only cost us some time and effort.
And if we do manage to make some useful gains, we all potentially will benefit. Even if power is not interesting to you, I am sure gas mileage might be..

Remember, the first step to solving a problem is to identify it, and the second is to analyze it.

So, let's move on. Dyno tests, observations of things that help understandng of the situation are helpful.

Let's try and do something at least partially together, shall we?

Canzoomer,
Nice post, I liked how you stated your concerns and also what you plan to do to address them. Talk is cheap but actions speak volumes. I hope this pans out.

You can definitely count me in for the A'pex piggy back ECU if they can add some punch to the limp top end of the Renesis. Just keep us posted as you find out more details. Thanks!

I can promise nothing.
As I watched this all unfold, I was hoping that Mazda and/or the aftermarket would jump in. With the actions that Mazda have taken it somewhat hogties them as to do anything to improve things somewhat implies there is a problem, while they have now said"We found a problem, this is it, that is the end of it"

The aftermarket was reluctant, as they too probably worried they could develop a product, then see the results of their efforts evaporate if Mazda DID do something about it.
Apexi, when we first approached them said "no rx8 parts, not even in development, we are still planning to see if business wise it is worth it (or not)."

I now feel relatively sure that Mazda is doing nothing, at least in this model year, that they will share with us, so the only way we are going to see some results is by members of the community doing it themsleves.

We are not trying to start by re-inventing the wheel.

What we are looking into is essentially what we call in computing terms a "wedge".
A software based device, inline with the ECU, that at certain times, and at certain conditions, will intercept the instructions sent by the ECU to the ignition and fuel system and insert it's own instructions instead. This is made relatively simple by the fact that we see the problems concentrated at the point when the 3rd set of intake runner opens at 7300rpm to 9500rpm.
At this stage the engine is almost certainly being fed an overly rich fuel setting, and perhaps inefficient ignition timing settings.

We plan to gather the data response from the sonsors, and the settings being sent to the fuel injection and timing subsystems and compare those to the same data ion a JSpec car setup.
By determining the differences, we hope to program the wedge to substitute those settings in this limited case.
We are not trying to accompish much more than that for now, but by doing this limited step, we hope to produce a device that inserts inline into the harnesses to the ECU, which will be relatively simple, inexpensive and reliable in use.
We also have to do so in a fashion that is easily and indetectably removeable, so when you go to the dealers, or for an emissions check, you may remove it, to return the car to stock condition.

If we succeed, then Apexi will likely market this through it's existing network of dealers. Fortunately their existing products perform these funtions right now. On the RX-7 3rd gen and 2nd gen turbos they control fuel and boost. Other products they make can be used to control ignition.

If we can not accomplish it with the assistance of Apexi, but still manage to do it by other means, we may have to find another means to distribute it.
Hopefully not, as that is WAY more work!

Wish us luck!!

Good luck canzoomer. I don't think they should call you a whiner anymore because you're actually doing something to resolve what's bugging you. Keep ignoring the fanboys who take your comments about the car so personally. Let them sit on their hands in contentment. Car forums need people like you to keep the balance and reality in check. We'll see how many of these 'content' but annoyed (at you) owners turn into hypocrites when they spring for this upgrade when such an ECU finally comes out. :)

Originally posted by downshift
Good luck canzoomer. I don't think they should call you a whiner anymore because you're actually doing something to resolve what's bugging you. Keep ignoring the fanboys who take your comments about the car so personally. Let them sit on their hands in contentment. Car forums need people like you to keep the balance and reality in check. We'll see how many of these 'content' but annoyed (at you) owners turn into hypocrites when they spring for this upgrade when such an ECU finally comes out. :)
Thanks for the positives,downshift.

Don't tempt me though. If this DOES work out it would be rather ironic, wouldn't it?

I look at it this way:
1) I really do like the car.
2) I would REALLY like to get the car I paid for

Apparently to some the idea is sacrilege. I guess I didn't realize I was buying into a religion.
I slammed Mazda (lots) because I am mad at them and think they somewhat suck over here. When I call my dealer and he says he has no shop manual, and essentially no method to fix it if it breaks, how much can "free service" really be worth?

However, the idiots in Mazda North America did not design or build the car. And I got one, at least for now.
This is my last gasp effort to save it.

I made a lot of negative comments about Mazda on purpose. I hoped enough people reading this would be enraged at Mazda, instead of at me, and if they were and the hue and cry got loud enough, maybe they would embarass Mazda into doing something more constructive.
I guess I am tired of being shot for being the messenger.


Who knows where it will go?

Originally posted by canzoomer

We are also looking fo the part # for an ECU.
If we can get a Canada or US tuned ECU to send to Japan, they can check it to see what it is doing at various conditions. This too would be invaluable.

Let's try and do something at least partially together, shall we?

I know someone who has a shop manual for the 8 IIRC. I'll ask him for the ECU part# and get back to you.

I want to ge the Japan ECU part, and do a drop in replacement.. Depending on the prohibitiveness of the cost...

However I am also interested in a device that could modify my ECU output to match the JDM spec..

OverLOAD

I got a price last night ( daytime in Tokyo) of around $1100 US dollars..
Gasp!

Good work Canzoomer. Good to see you are putting your passion into good use.

Just a note, I remember there's this Japanese magazine which tested the 5-sp version and the 6-sp version and have them clocked for almost the same time. So don't be so sure that the JDM spec 6-Sp ECU is the one that will get you the full 247hp.

As far as we know, we have YET to see a dyno for the 6-sp JDM version.So really, we don't know whether the Official hp number is not lowered at Japan because the engine IS really producing 247 hp or just that there's isn't a lot of people who actually dyno'ed their car over there.

If someone has any code for the JDM spec RX-8 ECU's, please PM me, I'd like to see what I can unearth...


OverLOAD

Originally posted by MyRxBad


I know someone who has a shop manual for the 8 IIRC. I'll ask him for the ECU part# and get back to you.
Thanks. I already obtained that info, and more, so no longer needed. Appreciate the help however!

Some news:
Today we pulled an ECU from an RX-8 at the shop, and did a bunch of work.

Interesting stuff:
The ECU board is inside a cast metal case, and the metal case is surrounded by a hollow plastic shroud. The shroud connects to two small air ducts that draw cool air in from the front of the grille, so as to cool the ECU housing.
VERY neat trick, but complicated.

The brackets that attach the shroud to the ECU housing use tamperproof screws. We had the correct driver tips on hand, so no problem.

The board has 3 flash programmable PROMs on it and one single burn ( one time programmable) PROM on it.
All components are surface mounted, and the whole board is coated in a protective waterproof applicate.

The programming points are a grid of via test holes on the back side of the board beneath each PROM.

Changing the chips would require a decent surface mount station and patience. Reprogramming in place requires a special probe device with pins to match the board holes. Very specialized tool.

Also, I received news that the JSpec ECU part is indeed the same as the one here, but with different code on it at time of supply and installation.
When purchased new in Japan or USA the part has NO ECU map code on it, and is supposed to be programmed by the dsitribution support centre in the respective country. They do this for the dealer upon receipt of the VIN and the service request.
So, for a JSpec ECU to be useful to us, it has to be prepared and installed into a Japan car first, then can be pulled and sent to us. However, when requesting a new ECU board, teh dealer has to send the old (failed) one back, so this means no spares with live code can be easily obtained, unless a car is temporarily disabled by lack of an ECU.

That avenue in general appears to be very difficult. One would need the dump of each of the 3 programmable chips, and they would have to either come up with the programmer tool (not available to dealers) or strip off the surface mount chips and apply them to a special programmer with contact base for this surface mount package type. Also not commonly available.

The most practical way of adjusting ECU behaviour appears to be to intercept the ECU data and signals at the connectors to the ECU packace with a add-in computer with over-ride maps and the ability to isolate and pass through signals or replace them as needed. In preliminary testing today we determined the pinouts for the sensors, and the signal type and levels to send data to the fuel and ignition controllers.

We now know that the Apexi and other control computers whould be able to over-ride the ECU to allow us to insert custom maps and responses to the system, bypassing the ECU when applicable.

When replacing the ECU, and re-attaching the battery I found the blinking traction system light on my panel, and was able to reset it by the method of turning the wheel to far left, far right, and back to centre, which alowed it to calibrate and return to normal state with the blinking light going off and the DSC working again.

The CPU is a 16 bit, 12 register device, semi custom, with a 4MHz clock, and there is a set of gate array logic on a big GAL ASIC chip, also surface mount, with about 220 contacts. A LOT of hardwired logic on that part!

Board is 4 layer, and nicely made.
The price tag on it is not too far out of line considering it's nature, probable quantity of manufacture, and level of tech..

More news to follow.
Next up:
Figuring out board/connectors to intercept the plugs to the ECU
Programming some stating map to the Apexi.
Testing, more testing, and some more testing.

holy.. interesting read, but a little over my head.

What's the bottom line?

When you are all done with the ECU modification, how difficlult will this be to duplicate?

I'm hoping that there will be solutions, answers and fixes to the power/fuel issues at hand prior to the spring, which is when I take delivery of my black beauty.

Bottom line:
1) It is possible to intercept data from sensors, and to provide alternate commands to fuel and ignition systems.

2) By doing this it is possible to over-ride the ECU, and send signals to systems which will result in leaner burn, and better power output all along the rpm curve, and specifically above 7300rpm.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to know what gains will be made as of yet.
Once we are at a point that we feel it is possible to build and supply, we will run dyno tests, and co-operate with others interested in their own dyno testing.
At that time actual figures will be stated.


I can GUESS ( NOTE THAT I SAID "GUESS") that we should easily get back the 247HP, and I FEEL that we can probably pick up around 10 to 15 HP from 4000rpm up to 7300rpm, and about 30HP or more at 8500rpm.

If and when we complete this our goal is to produce a device that connects into the ECU connector blocks, and which will sit in the cab of the car. This device can be set to do nothing, or to insert modified response data to the ECU and system controls.

Thus it can be turned off to leave stock settings, or on to produce more power and better mileage.


Laymans terms:
Hey Billy-Bob, wanna chip your Mazda?

Warning: If used it is very possible that the device would make the car not pass emmissions regulations in some locales. If so the device could only be legally used on a race track, in sanctioned events and practice.

There, just did my best to cover my butt.

Originally posted by canzoomer


Laymans terms:
Hey Billy-Bob, wanna chip your Mazda?



Say Betty-Lou, if we was to get a divorce, would u still be ma sister?

---------------------------------

In order to prevent warrantee loss, would this system be easily removable, or somehow undetectable by Mazda at times of servicing?

To insall or remove the device one would:
1) Open the ECU cover at the front right, under the hood. 3 bolts and 2 snap posts.

2) Remove the battery cover ( 3 clips).
Disconnect the battery.

3) Disconnect 4 electrical connector plugs.
Unplug the ECU plugs ( 6 of them, all in a row).

4) Plug the interface board into the ECU sockets where we just removed the plugs.

5) Re-insert the ECU lugs into the interface board.

6) Re-assemble the covers and connectors. 3 bolts, 4 plugs, 2 clips. Reconnect the battery.

7) Start the car and calibrate the traction control system ( turn wheel fully left, right, back to centre)

It took me about 15 minutes to disassemble it yesterday, but could now do it in 5, as I now know what to do.
It took me about 10 minutes to put it all back together yesterday.

Once done it is indetectable.

Naturally one needs to be reasonably careful. If you were to break a connector the dealer might have some questions why you were in there in the first place. Of course one could claim curiousity, and admit to clumsiness..

"I was looking for a plug for my radar detector"

<grin>

Good write up canzoomer.
Sounds like they really went hi tech on the ECU build. Especially with the 2 flash roms.

Keep up the good work.

As long as the final Dyno results are satisfactory, and no possibility of engine damage, then you can count me in :D

Thanks for the great work canzoomer

This is fascinating. I'm not a car guy - I mean, I love my 8, been waiting for it since '96 when I saw the last RX-7's sold in Houston. But I really don't understand that much of what goes on under the hood (beyond the basics that I understand as a mechanical engineer).

However, I am an engineer and would love to hack my 8. If the price is right, and the risk is low, I'm in.

I do have one problem. I understand that in North America, the 8's ECU is programmed with a pig-rich fuel/air ratio. I also understand that this was done to comply with strict emissions regulations. Further, I understand that emissions controls are designed to protect the environment.

So, our cars are all burning more hydrocarbons than is necessary so we can protect the environment? I don't understand.

Few Interesting Things came up on the forum today:

Paul Yaw discovered that this car cannot be properly dyno'ed at its full potential with the front wheel not moving.
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10823&highlight=YAW


One magazine dyno'ed the J-Spec RX-8 and got 217.0ps @ 9000RPM
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11170&highlight=Option


take a look and enjoy.

[Edit] - Fixed the broken links

Originally posted by Smoker
Few Interesting Things came up on the forum today:

Paul Yaw discovered that this car cannot be properly dyno'ed at its full potential with the front wheel not moving.
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread....3&highlight=YAW


One magazine dyno'ed the J-Spec RX-8 and got 217.0ps @ 9000RPM
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread....ighlight=option


take a look and enjoy.

Smoker,

Your links are not working for me.:(

-Fixed. Please Click again. :D :D

Originally posted by bgparsons3
I do have one problem. I understand that in North America, the 8's ECU is programmed with a pig-rich fuel/air ratio. I also understand that this was done to comply with strict emissions regulations. Further, I understand that emissions controls are designed to protect the environment.

So, our cars are all burning more hydrocarbons than is necessary so we can protect the environment? I don't understand.

Yeah, that is the trade-off.

Here is how it basically works:
We use catalytic converters to change the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide in the exhaust into carbon dioxide and water vapor. The converter use chemical catalysis to create this change.
A catalytic process has to be powered by something. In this case heat.
So, we burn more fuel, to make more heat, to make the cats work better.
Mazda used to use a device called a thermal reactor on rotaries.
They are also a device to burn the products of incomplete combustion, but they do it directly, by adding more fuel and burning the resulting gas mixture. Kind of an "afterburner" but no thrust is produced. They have been abandoned as they use even more fuel than a cat.

This makes less "bad" pollutants, releases MORE CO2, and uses more non-replaceable fossil fuels.

That is considered to be the lesser of two evils.
We are burning MORE hydrocarbons, but burning them more completely.

Originally posted by Smoker
Few Interesting Things came up on the forum today:

Paul Yaw discovered that this car cannot be properly dyno'ed at its full potential with the front wheel not moving.
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10823&highlight=YAW


One magazine dyno'ed the J-Spec RX-8 and got 217.0ps @ 9000RPM
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11170&highlight=Option


Well, Paul is a bright guy, and he makes some good points, but he does not prove anything. I agree that there is a possibility that the car goes rich and down on power if the front wheels are not turning, but there IS NO speed sensor for the front wheels in action ONCE YOU TURN OFF THE DSC!

And the GTech numbers people have shown are amazingly similar to the chassis dyno results so far.

On the Japanese thread the writer (x28) claims that the JSpec RX-8 makes 217HP. That is perfectly in line with a car making 247HP at the engine, and losing about 30hp to driveline loss.

Comparing that with the numbers we have seen here, we see that the cars in North America that make (at best) 187HP, and often less, are down on power by at least 30HP from the Japanese model.

This is completely consistent with everything we have seen here so far.

And here is the final statement to all those who consider me to be a "whiner":

That is a heck of a lot more than "9HP" that Mazda claims.

Oh, and in Japan they got a 0-62.7 in 7.04 seconds ( that is 0-60 in 6.74) and a 1/4 mile in 14.97

So, the cars that Mazda North America ran to make the slips submitted to Rotary Power are apparently a good half second faster than the Japan cars?
I smell bullshit.. I don't know if it is coming from Mazda, Rotary Power, or Artex in Japan, but it still smells like bullshit.

Originally posted by Evolv
As long as the final Dyno results are satisfactory, and no possibility of engine damage, then you can count me in :D

Thanks for the great work canzoomer

One can not guarantee "no possibility of engine damage"

Examples:
1) If an engine makes more power it is subject to more stress, and will probably not last as long.
Of course how you drive it is probably the bigger factor in this.
Do 8K clutch drops all week and I suspect you might hurt your car.

2) If you are handling the ECU and touch a connector, and are in dry air, with wool and polyester clothing, there is a very good chance you might cause static electricity damage to the ECU.
If you wear a ground strap to the chassis then this is very unlikely to happen. Normal electronics precautions are advised!

3) If you run crap 85 octane gas, with low anti-knock properties, and a fixed fuel air curve that is leaner than stock, there is a very good chance of engine knock ( I can almost guarnatee it!).
We are trying to see if we can keep the anti-knock sensor in circuit, but I can not say at this point if this will be feasible.

4) If you run 40 more horsepower, turn off the DSC, crank it and loop the car, and hit a Buick, then there is a very good chance of engine damage ( not to mention fender, bumper, and human damage)

There will always be SOME risk!

Originally posted by canzoomer

but there IS NO speed sensor for the front wheels in action ONCE YOU TURN OFF THE DSC!


wait, you cannot just assume that. There is a good chance by disabling the DSC, you are simply telingl the computer NOT to do DSC for you BUT that doesn't mean that the computer will stop receiving and processing the information from the front wheel. Hmmm.... kind of like turning off the ringer off your cell phone but your phone is still receiving the incoming calls. Just that the ringing function is off. Hope you know what I'm trying to say.

And you are right, Paul Yaw didn't exactly post any "real proof" on the thread but given the fact that he carefully picking apart the engine and the ECU and figuring all fine details out with the help of the Shop manual. I think we should have some faith in the guy and give him some time to show his findings to us. Given the fact that this is his and his own business, I don't think he is just making things up over there. Be Patient guys !

I applaud you for all the work you have done, but why are you always trying to find something wrong??..........do you realize that the times they posted ( 0-60 in 6.74 secs) all depend on the launch from start.....I read an atricle on the G-35 from a smaller mag, and it stated a 0-60 time in 6.6secs........yet from a hard launch (4000rpm) R & T got a time 0f 6.1secs.....same thing for the 8.............it all works out....hard launch 5.9secs.......but the 5-60 time really widens here, and from start it makes a huge difference on your time......like maybe .5secs !! ...................and yes I figured something was wrong with all these dyno numbers, there is no cover-up here.........:o ............I have driven the car, and been a passanger many times......it didn't take a wizard to figure out that the car was putting down more than 180whp...................

Originally posted by Smoker


wait, you cannot just assume that. There is a good chance by disabling the DSC, you are simply telingl the computer NOT to do DSC for you BUT that doesn't mean that the computer will stop receiving and processing the information from the front wheel. Hmmm.... kind of like turning off the ringer off your cell phone but your phone is still receiving the incoming calls. Just that the ringing function is off. Hope you know what I'm trying to say.

And you are right, Paul Yaw didn't exactly post any "real proof" on the thread but given the fact that he carefully picking apart the engine and the ECU and figuring all fine details out with the help of the Shop manual. I think we should have some faith in the guy and give him some time to show his findings to us. Given the fact that this is his and his own business, I don't think he is just making things up over there. Be Patient guys !

The hell with patience. We can test things now!

We went to the simple procedure of hooking up a meter to the wheel sensor today.

When the DSC is on there is a 12 volt potential andabout 120 milliamp current to the sensor, and it is modulated to a pulse by the wheel turning. With the car on a stand, you can turn the front wheel and verify this.

With the DSC fully disabled, as in by pressing and holding the button for 5 seconds, there is NO current on the sensor line. There is NO pulse from the wheel sensor.

The method used on the wheel sensor is similar to a fan for a computer: A tach pulse is generated when the wheel spins.

You can verify this for yourself:
Raise the front of the car on a jack stand.
Start the car.
Put a multimeter on the connector to the wheel sensor.
Spin the wheel. See the meter jump on the blue wire connection.
See the 12 volts on the black and grey lines.

Now turn off the DSC. Repeat meter tests.

However, there is one other possible test we need to do:
The car has some air flow sensors that I have not yet found. They are on the schematic. But it does not show their physical location.
They are not MAFs, and are simple flow sensors.
If they can use ducts to cool the shroud around the ECU, I do not put it past them to put a flow sensor or two in places to detect the air, and if no pressure, de-tune the car to prevent heat problems or something.


They MIGHT be there to detect air flow in the engine compartment.

Or, theymight juist be pressure sensors in some vacuum or air line. Got to find them first to tell..

Anybody mention that this damned car is COMPLICATED?

The electrical manual is about 100+ pages. And costs about $125

That damned computer and sensor array is way more complicated than the PC I am sitting in front of..

What Broker73 is saying about the launch techniques used during test makes sense and match my own observations.

I made three runs and lauched at a different RPM each time. You can see the results below. The first run I tried to start out at the lowest possible RPMs and quickly feather the clutch. On the second run I dumped the clutch at around 6k RPMs and the third was at 8k RPMs. If you look at the graph it is pretty easy to tell when the tires hook up or in the case of the 1st run it was when the clutch was fully engaged. Just look for the point where the RPMs start climbing in a straight line. The second and third run are prety interesting because it actually took me longer to get to 60' (due to lots of wheel spin) on the third run but the rest of the run was faster. Like 0.538 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile and that supports what Broker73 said.

Bottom line is that higher RPM starts dramatically improve your times with this car.

P.S. But you won't catch me doing them very often because I know that some thing is going to break sooner rather than later. ;)

great info, and it looks like you made some good 1/4mile times.......that is why I have been amazed on here at the people that cry about performance......no doubt there are faster cars out there, but lets face it, on the street if you drive it hard enough (not that I would), you will blow the doors off most cars next to you........all depends on how hard to rev it, and that is what makes this car fun!.......never been one to do modes to a car, other than throw in a K&N filter, and after 6000k on the new cars I have owned, they really seem to open up.........I can't wait to feel that with the 8............test drove a 350z twice, and it just made me feel more happy about my choice.....it's a nice car, and fast, but not that much faster, and not the refined ride and handling of the 8...........we are so lucky!..........

Great work canzoomer. Good to see you are finally channeling that anger and frustration into something positive. I hope this trend continues and we can maybe 'get along' a little better now ;)

It has never been about burying our heads in the sand (well for some it has, but for most of us it hasn't). For me at least it is about patience. I am not one to go running around screaming at people without all the facts. Even now it is obvious that we do not have all the facts - but finally some of the pieces are starting to come together (Yaw, these posts from canzoomer).

Canzoomer the reason you frustrated so many of us before wasn't that you were talking 'truth', and we were too stubborn to hear it. As many of us have posted over and over, we are aware that presently there is still some disparity between the listed hp and the rwhp. Like everyone else we want answers. Some of us unfortunately don't have the resources to truly test the situation and GET answers. So we were willing to wait, enjoy our still fun-to-drive cars, and find out the truth. You ran around posting negative things in EVERY thread on this damn board for a while. You posted a LOT of assumptions (not facts), and had a habit of doing so in completely inappropriate places. Someone could start a thread asking what oil to use, and I'd be waiting for canzoomer to reply with "It doesn't matter what oil you use you still won't be getting 238 hp!". That got old very quickly.

That said, I personally applaud what you are doing now. Thanks for being one of the people with the resources to get some answers, and for pursuing them. Hopefully everything will come out sooner or later - if you guys can use all of this info to PROVE that the car isn't getting even 238 hp, then we can take the PROOF to Mazda and demand something be done about it. That would be an even better situation than having to buy stuff to fix it ourselves ;)

Here's hoping we get answers, one way or the other.

Speed Racer, can you pls click on the "HP & TQ vs RPM" tab and make a screenshot of it too?

Canzoomer: Is that the same sensor that is used for ABS? I find it hard to believe that turning off the DSC would turn off all ABS functions as well, which must also use some type of wheel-speed sensor...

Originally posted by jmanolov
Speed Racer, can you pls click on the "HP & TQ vs RPM" tab and make a screenshot of it too?

They were posted on a previous thread. You can check out the graph and comments here (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7976&perpage=15&pagenumber=19).

On the front wheels there is one sensor.
On the rear there are two, but in one package.
There are two output circuits on the rear, and one on the front.

Makes sense, as front wheel are not powered, so slip reduces wheel speed.
On the rear, you can have slip, and you can have wheelspin from power.
Two differing conditions.

The main reason people are turning off DSC for dynos is so that the inevitable wheel spin does not trigger DSC, which reduces power selectively to counter skids.

The other effect is that the DSC monitors front wheels for skid, and will aslo reduce power to counter.
Disabling DSC puts the wheels in static response mode.

Disbabling DSC does not reduce performance.
Try driving with it off and you quickly realize you get a lot more response and power with it off.

Originally posted by canzoomer



When the DSC is on there is a 12 volt potential andabout 120 milliamp current to the sensor, and it is modulated to a pulse by the wheel turning. With the car on a stand, you can turn the front wheel and verify this.

With the DSC fully disabled, as in by pressing and holding the button for 5 seconds, there is NO current on the sensor line. There is NO pulse from the wheel sensor.



did you measure the voltage after merely pressing the DSC OFF button quickly, rather than holding it down for more than 5 seconds? The owner's manual indicates that holding down the button makes the computer thinks there is a problem with the switch, and that merely pressing the button quickly is enough to turn off the DSC and TCS. I'd try it myself, but I don't have my rx-8 yet! thanks.

Pressing the button down turns off active DSC control. There is still power to the sensors, and pulse from them when wheel turned.

Pressing and holding results in 3 pulses to the sensors, then power shuts off to them.

thanks for the info.

Here's what I see from looking at the GTech rpm graph. The 2nd run at 6k drop and the 3rd run at 8k drop should produced the same time and result. The difference between them is the shifts time. The 1-2 shift is almost exactly at the same point but the 2nd run shift take more than half a second longer than the 3rd run. This translated to a half second difference at the 1/4 mile.

http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=123174

First off, maybe I am out to lunch on this, as I do not own a GTEch, and have never used one.
I DO notice one thing, however.

Look at the timeline on the bottom of the graphs sheet.

The time is indexed to start at -1 seconds, not 0. The car started moving, and from that point to the end (1/4 mile) the times on the graph are one second higher than on the printed numbers.

If I read this correctly all the run times are offset by 1 second.
In other words the 1/4 mile runs are actually 15.704, 15.575 and 15.037 seconds.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but also please explain that to me..

Another thing I am curious is how the GTEch data gets the points for distance?
It does not measure where the car is, only the rpm and the G's, so how is it told when you pass a distance like 1/8 and 1/4 mile??

Any info on that?

It doesn't actually start at -1 sec, but at -.58, -.38, and -.38 sec respectively. Look at the "Rollout" line. This is done to simulate a dragstrip. At the strip, timing doesn't start until the wheel clear the staging light. This can be as much as the width of the wheel at the height of the staging light. In this case, it's about 12 in.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Now for the second question:
How is the distance input to the GTech?
If it is done manually does this not also potentially skew the numbers quite a bit?

If a person has a variation in response of half a second in this case ( such as in the 1st to 2nd gear shift times) then would there not also be the potential for a similar inaccuracy in the distance points?

I sure wish we could see some private runs done on a real drag strip, preferably a nice one with trap lights at various distances..

I can see why few would want to be doing this.
I personally would not want to hammer my car that hard, especially at low mileage, but then the same could be said for GTech testing..

A few of us forum members, who are not professional drag racers would sure make a nice sample of real world data..

Maybe we could talk Mazda into lending us some cars, fresh off the dealer showroom?

Nah, I guess I am dreaming!
;)

hey speed racer, can you run about 3 tanks of 87 octane through your car, then try your 1/4 mile run again on 87 octane? there are reports of increased fuel economy on 87, and I'm intensley curious about the power output at 87 octane.

check out this thread about 87 octane:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9314&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by zojas
hey speed racer, can you run about 3 tanks of 87 octane through your car, then try your 1/4 mile run again on 87 octane? there are reports of increased fuel economy on 87, and I'm intensley curious about the power output at 87 octane.

check out this thread about 87 octane:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9314&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Hey Zojas,
The thought of experimenting with 87 octane has crossed my mind a few times but the thought of knocking under a heavy load (i.e. speed tests) scares me a bit. From what I understand knocking is one of the reasons why the apex seals may fail and I don't want to be the first guy to announce that he has blown his motor. So I think I'll pass on the 87 octane at the moment. ;)

good point, I hadn't thought about that!

Hi Guys

Just wanted to contact other rx-8 owners in metro.

Got my red 6m gt last friday!

Love it but already need the converter replaced.

Dealing with City Mazda.
Trying to get the M flash done also but they don't seem to know what that is.

Anyway I would like to know who you guys deal with for service.

Have any of you had the M flash done?

Thanks

Hmmm, those of us who took delivery of our 8's last year dealt with Steele. They were very knowledgable and kept a membership active on this forum - not sure if City and Steele have a good relationship or not but that might be one way to move the information around.

Also, do a search for "TSB" and you'll find all the technical info you need to get any update/recall work done. Typically the info is released to MNAO months before the dealers in Canada get it. Go to the TSB link, print it and take it to City with you.

The "M" reflash is great, haven't noticed improvement in fuel efficiency but definite power improvement. Just waiting on my CZ Stage 1 now ... The City guys may understand the "30.8 PCM recal" as opposed to the "M reflash".

Originally posted by Rays8
Hi Guys

Just wanted to contact other rx-8 owners in metro.

Got my red 6m gt last friday!

Love it but already need the converter replaced.

Dealing with City Mazda.
Trying to get the M flash done also but they don't seem to know what that is.

Anyway I would like to know who you guys deal with for service.

Have any of you had the M flash done?

Thanks

I wouldn't let City Mazda breath in the direction of my car, never mind work on it.

Long story short: Bodyshop stalled my 8 and it flooded.. they called City looking for how to get it started and were told by the City service department to "Tow it up to speed in 2nd gear and dump the clutch..."
Thankfully the guys at the bodyshop were MUCH smarter then that... especially since there is actually a section in the owners manual on how to handle it.

Also, when I went in to talk to the manager at City when I was setting up the Dyno day, not only did he totally dismiss me, shoot me down, tell me "none of our customer have any issues" and basically try to get me out of the dealership as fast as possible, but I had to spend a couple of minutes explaining to him what I was talking about.

So far, I have had good results with Steele. They have taken care of my car as expected and effeciently.
But, if I had major work to do, or didn't mind a bit of a road trip every time I needed an oil change, I would take my car to Will at Mills Mazda in Truro.

Will used to be with Mills in Dartmouth before he sold it to Steele, and then moved with him to Truro.
Will just came in Top-2 in the Candian Mazda Tech competition a few months ago and finished Top-12 in North America. He is VERY good.... did the Supercharger install on a friend of mines Miata 10AE...

Oh, and welcome to the Metro RX-8 owner family! :)
Hopefully we'll see you around.
In fact, if I get some initiative, I may have to put together some kind of a meet in the near future.

Hi

Just thought it would be nice to set up a meet for RX-7, RX-8 owners some time soon.

Point Pleasent Park, Parking area seems to be the inplace for other clubs.

Any takers?

Rays8

It would depend on the date, time and weather, since it's about and hour and a half drive from here.

Originally posted by Rays8
Hi

Just thought it would be nice to set up a meet for RX-7, RX-8 owners some time soon.

You might want to start a new thread with an appropriate subject line! An old thread titled 'Dyno day' might not get too many people's attention... ;)

Regards,
Gordon