I thought I would let everyone know that today I sent off the check for Richard Sohn's OMP adapter. I am looking forward to installing this mod as I think using 2-cycle oil (Idemitsu) instead of crankcase oil to lubricate will provide better lubrication and greatly reduce the carbon buildup.

When I talked with Richard today, he also let me know that he has added an "Adjuster" option to the Adapter. The "Adjuster" was designed to allow you to control the OMP flow settings without the need for the Engine Management System (EMS), which is necessary for airplane applications that do not have an EMS (which is why he started making these in the first place).

The Adjuster sets the OMP base oil flow rate and then the OMP actual rate adjusts up with engine RPM (higher is more). By adjusting the base rate higher you can increase flow rate across the whole RPM range to your desired amount. This in effect, can provide someone the ability to not only use better oil, but to increase the flow rate to whatever level you desire (up to the maximum capacity of the OMP), eliminating the need to "premix" to achieve the additional lubrication many are seeking.

I did not get the "Adjuster" as I intend to let the EMS control the flow (I am satisfied with the latest flash settings for OMP flow), but for those who want more lube such as current premixers, FI engines, etc. the Adapter with the Adjuster just may be your ticket.

I will attach some more data from the updated flyer he sent me in the next post.

Metering Pump Adapter for Wankel Engine.

Wankel engines such as the one used in the MAZDA RX7 sports car need oil in the
combustion area for lubricating the metal seals.

Most stock engines use a metering pump pumping a small amount of engine oil from the
oil pan into the intake manifold and/or directly into the combustion chamber. Engine oil
is designed to lubricate sleeve bearings and carry heat from the engine interior to some
cooling areas. In the RX7 the heat is removed from the oil in an oil cooler. When engine
oil is getting into the combustion chamber, it only is burning partially, leaving some
unburned deposits behind. These deposits can build up and reduce engine performance.
One obvious method of preventing this is to disconnect the metering pump altogether and
mix two-stroke oil to the gasoline like some older two-stroke engines require. With this
method it has been demonstrated that two-stroke oil is an effective lubricant and there is
no build up of combustion residues.

The Metering Pump Adapter, as offered by Richard Sohn takes the solution one step
further in allowing to still using the stock metering pump but supply it with two-stroke
oil. With the Adapter installed, all that is needed is a small oil tank with two-stroke oil,
connected to the Metering Pump Adapter. The oil level in the tank should never be less
then 6” above metering pump.Oil consumption is approximately 1/100 of fuel used.

ADJUSTER FOR THE RENESIS OMP

The RENESIS engine is becoming increasingly popular for conversion for use in
experimental airplanes. Using the Oil Metering Pump for top lubrication is an open
question, because most after market EMSs do not provide an output for OMP control.
In the RX8 automobile the OMP oil flow is controlled by engine RPM and pump-rate.
The pump-rate control is activated by the engine computer. This pump-rate control is
used to increase oil flow when there is an increased power demand at low engine RPM.
This condition does generally not occur in an airplane.

When the engine is used with an EMS with no output for the OMP, the only option is to
mix some oil in the fuel for top lubrication. The preferred oil used for this method is two-
stroke oil for its ability to readily mix with gasoline and lower combustion residues than
regular motor oil.

To overcome this draw back in aircraft use, the OMP pump-rate control can be fixed to a
certain position, and the oil flow will only change with engine RPM.

The RX8OMP is equipped with a position sensor, (pic 1.), which monitors the position of
the control shaft on the pump. This position sensor may be replaced with an adjuster
(pic.2.) to set the control shaft to a fixed position. In this way, the OMP is fully
functional, giving an oil amount comparable to oil mixed in the fuel.



If anyone would like the full PDF file with additional Data, Pictures and Ordering information, send me a PM/e-mail and I will forward.

Please let us know how you like this unit, ie: installation, what kind of oil tank are you going to use, tank location and any difference of carbon build up at the exhaust tips.

Please let us know how you like this unit, ie: installation, what kind of oil tank are you going to use, tank location and any difference of carbon build up at the exhaust tips.

Will do - should receive next week sometime.

GTAW has a DIY posted on his website. But for the life of me I can't remember what the address is! Anyway, he tapped the windshield washer tank and used it. It holds a lot and if you have the translucent tank it makes checking the level quite easy. You could also always get one of those tank level sensors installed in it as well.

Here is a link to GTAW's DIY for the Richard Sohn's OMP adapter.

http://www.turborenesis.com/ompadapter.html

he tapped the windshield washer tank and used it. It holds a lot and if you have the translucent tank it makes checking the level quite easy. You could also always get one of those tank level sensors installed in it as well.

This is my plan as well as I do not really ever use windshield washer fluid anyways.

Also, this tank already has a level sensor (the WW one) that I think will still work after putting in the 2-stroke oil. I intend to do the same as GTAW and tap the tank at the bottom round part that hold the tank secure in the chassis.

Here is a link to GTAW's DIY for the Richard Sohn's OMP adapter.

http://www.turborenesis.com/ompadapter.html

This is an excellent DIY that I read many times before deciding to do this!!!!

I did notice though that my coolant hose arrangement around the OMP (in a 2006) is a little different than what he photographed, but should work almost the same to get enough OMP line slack to install the adapter.

I've run my washer tank dry and never realized it. I'll have to check the manual for that one :)

I've got one of these on my RX-7. It's a great mod.

this is my next mod!!! will be ordering soon & posting my results...

speed source premixes 1ounce per gallon and uses the MOP.

why in the world would you use your windshield wash fluid tank instead of just putting in another small tank... even something as small as a quart container will probably last you weeks

The adjuster is VERY interesting. Jax, you have mail!

F

why in the world would you use your windshield wash fluid tank instead of just putting in another small tank... even something as small as a quart container will probably last you weeks

I am considering a separate tank and have been searching, but they are hard to find that are HDPE 2. The link below is one I am considering, but is only 1 qt (32oz), so you would have to check the oil level more frequently.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=14953&product%5Fid=15084

This may be as big as you can go and actually find a decent location for it on the left, back side (from the front) of the engine bay and keep the winshield washer tank as well.

Tom over at Turborenesis recommended the tank below although he went w/ the windshield washer tank...

tank (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=14120&variant%5Fid=8662)
cap (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=14120&variant%5Fid=8675)

if you guys think you can fit this anywhere... let us know...

I am considering a separate tank and have been searching, but they are hard to find that are HDPE 2. The link below is one I am considering, but is only 1 qt (32oz), so you would have to check the oil level more frequently.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=14953&product%5Fid=15084

This may be as big as you can go and actually find a decent location for it on the left, back side (from the front) of the engine bay and keep the winshield washer tank as well.


How much are you planning on injecting? 32oz should be enough for several gas tanks worth of driving...

How much are you planning on injecting? 32oz should be enough for several gas tanks worth of driving...

Just planning on the standard amount the OMP normally injects (as I also am using FP60 in the gas as well for cleaning and additional lubrication).

For me, oil usage appears to be 1000-1500 miles/quart, so this tank should suffice. I ordered it today and will see how well it fits. I will need to find a strap or something to secure it between the washer tank and the strut post.

Tom over at Turborenesis recommended the tank below although he went w/ the windshield washer tank...

tank (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=14120&variant%5Fid=8662)
cap (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=14120&variant%5Fid=8675)

if you guys think you can fit this anywhere... let us know...

Nice tank, just not sure it will fit.

I ordered the 32 oz tank today - should get in a couple of days. I will let everyone know how it fits.

Suggestions on best way to secure?

I like the idea of the washer tank. Bigger is better. It's well-secured and about as elevated as you can get in the engine compartment to help ensure a positive gravity-feed. Its shape also seems like it would help minimize sloshing issues. You don't want those lines to get air bubbles.

I wouldn't want to do without windshield washer though. But I think a smaller resevoir would be fine for the windhsield washer and would work fine in a different location.

I'd rather have a tank thats sized for a quart then 2 quarts since 2 quarts will last a good 3,000 miles and in those 3 months the oil is bound to get contaminated beyond belief from condensation

speed source premixes 1ounce per gallon and uses the MOP.


It's important to note that they do not run cat converters ;)

Nice tank, just not sure it will fit.

I ordered the 32 oz tank today - should get in a couple of days. I will let everyone know how it fits.

Suggestions on best way to secure?

I hear for track days you can burn a quart in double digit miles.

using a quart of oil per track w/e is about average. One thing to keep in mind(my mind at least ) is that the FI guys may want to do this mod. I like this concept and my time is probaly coming.
OD

It's important to note that they do not run cat converters ;)

oh i suppose it is:)

Please post your DIY pictures if possible coz this thing is high on many's mod list. I have a question, would a plastic tank for nitromethane RC last with 2 stroke oil?

Can the adapter be ordered on-line? I went to the Turbogenessis site, but couldn't find an order form...

You can order directly from Richard Sohn via email (unicorn@gdsys.net)

You can order directly from Richard Sohn via email (unicorn@gdsys.net)

You can communicate with him via this e-mail, but he only takes personal checks and/or a certified check now (at least that is what he just told me Monday) - so in the end you are going to have to mail a check with your purchase request

Please post your DIY pictures

Here it is again (thanks again to GTAW)

http://www.turborenesis.com/ompadapter.html

The only confusion I had was on the tank and how to tap the tank (whatever tank you decide upon). I went to Lowes, in the plumbing section, and got a 1/4 barb fitting (for the hose side) and a 1/4 inch male threaded on the opposite side (for the tank side).

I also got a 1/4 npt male pipe tap to thread the tank hole (after drilling starter hole) for the threaded side of the connector.

would a plastic tank for nitromethane RC last with 2 stroke oil?

Must be a HDPE 2 (High Density Polyethylene) or better. If your tank would hold nitromethane, it should hold two stroke oil.

Quick question [i searched]: will the OMP adapter void my warranty? It scares me thinking about what dealers would say if they saw one of these in an engine bay.

I'm going to say that yes it will. Without the OMP your car will die, if you modify it and your engine dies...guess what they are going to say?

I'll leave mine as-is and just premix if I want the extra insurance.

So, I got the 32 oz container that I ordered and I cannot find a good location to mount it. While there is some room in front of the washer tank, the electrical connection and the wash pump get in the way of it resting far enough down for me to comfortable. If I put it there, it would sit on the washer wires/pump and over time would likely break off the wires.

The engine bay is so tightly packed that I cannot find a place that I like, so I am going back to my original plan of using the washer tank. This means I will have to go back to smaller connector so I can connect into the bottom round part of that tank (too much of a radius to have a large connector). I will use a 1/4 barb fitting on one side with a couple of adapters to get to a 1/8 threaded (inside hole size, outside is about 1/4) connector on the other side.

While I preferred not to use the washer tank, I do like that the washer tank is very well secured, larger capacity, and walls of it are thicker than the other tank so the connection should be more secure as well.

Still waiting on the Sohn Adapter to arrive - hopefully next week so I can get it on.

So, I got the 32 oz container that I ordered and I cannot find a good location to mount it. While there is some room in front of the washer tank, the electrical connection and the wash pump get in the way of it resting far enough down for me to comfortable. If I put it there, it would sit on the washer wires/pump and over time would likely break off the wires.

...

The 16 oz version of your bottle should fit next to the washer tank then? I also noticed that there's a gap behind the washer tank about the same thickness of a standard 1 quart oil bottle ... now if I can find a "flat" clear/translucent 1 quart container the same thickness ...

BTW, thanks for the ordering info.

The 16 oz version of your bottle should fit next to the washer tank then? I also noticed that there's a gap behind the washer tank about the same thickness of a standard 1 quart oil bottle ... now if I can find a "flat" clear/translucent 1 quart container the same thickness ...

BTW, thanks for the ordering info.

If you mean between the washer tank and the fender, it might depending on the shape, but 16 oz is getting kind of small and would need checked often.

There is a pretty significant gap behind the tank that could just about hold another small tank, but it would have to be the right shape exactly with a refill hole on the side for access - I have not seen anything yet that would work there.

I got my Adpater and Idemitsu Premix delivered Yesterday. I will install this weekend and let everyone know how it goes.

On the warranty issue - I think this mod will provide better protection for the engine than the stock setup, reducing the likelihood of a warranty related engine issue. But if something did go wrong with the engine and you are unsure of how your dealer would react, you can always uninstall the adapter before taking it in.

I got my Adpater and Idemitsu Premix delivered Yesterday. I will install this weekend and let everyone know how it goes.

So, this was interesting. I have now successfully got the Adapter installed and pulling Idemitsu Premix from the old washer tank. This took a little longer than I thought it would, mostly due to my learning and one screw-up I had to fix.

Here is a summary:

- I had already removed, cleaned, tapped, and installed the barb fitting and hose to the washer tank and re-installed. This was quite easy and I highly recommend this solution for the tank. I could not find another one I was comfortable with.

- Next, idiot me, took 3 hours getting the Battery and case/base out as I did not realize that the sides unit comes off separately to allow access to the bolts to remove the base. I won't forget that one anytime soon. Took 10 minutes the second time!

- Next was removing the coolant hose with some partial coolant draining. This was quite easy, just took a little while for it all to drain and clean up.

- Then I had to remove the OMP from the engine block. Remember to remove the two electrical connections first. I never thought I was going to able to do this until I figured out how to get to the 3 bolts - the top front bolt is tight, but you get to it from the top with a short extension and a flexible joint. The back two bolts are much easier to access from the bottom (took awhile to figure that one out). So, I jacked up the car and actually reached them by using a 3" extension with a flexible, and a 12" extension. This allows you to reach from inside fender (tire on) and reach both bolts. The top back one is a reach to get to, but you can get to it with one hand guiding through the bottom frame gap and the other working the wrench in the wheel well.

- Once the OMP is off, I moved the lines over to the other side of the coolant pipe. This is tougher than you might think as these lines, although clear plastic, are very stiff and I was scared of breaking them. But I eventually got them over. BTW, this is the time to wrap them to protect them from the coolant hose clips - I used a piece of small coolant hose wrap I took off when I put on the Mazsport mod and electrical taped. I also turned all the coolant hose clip grabs away from these lines.

- I then put the coolant hose back on and secured, working around the OMP lines.

- Now is the really hard part, mating the Adapter to the OMP, getting the gasket on, and getting this against the engine block straight. If you do this wrong (like I did the first time) you will tear up the gasket and it WILL leak. I had to get a new gasket sent to me from Richard Sohn to finish - YOU MAY WANT TO ORDER AN EXTRA in the first place.

Anyways, the trick here is the get the Adapter and the OMP together with the "keys" aligned properly (use the original OMP seal between the OMP and the Adapter). Then put on the Adapter gasket on and put the bottom, back bolt through the assembly to help hold all 3 pieces together and to help hold the gasket in place (with the gasket also being held by the round center section on the adapter). Then from underneath, start the back bottom bolt slightly, get up on top and snug the whole assembly to the block (making sure to align the key, it will not snug if you do not). ASSURE THE GASKET IS STRAIGHT on the bolt holes and around the key area as you snug it up to the block. Then snug the one back bottom bolt, start the other 2 bolts, snug up all 3 bolts good , then tighten all 3.

Be patient with this - this took me several attempts to get this straight and right (the second go around). The first time I got impatient and messed up the gasket because it was not straight and I forced a bolt through the gasket, The second time went easier, but I took my time and made sure it was right on before I did the last 2 bolts and tightened up.

- Add oil to the tank and flow oil through the line the get the air out. attach and tighten down with hose connector.

- From here, it is just putting everything else back, which went real easy.

This tried my patience a lot, mostly due to my lack of knowledge under the hood and the tight working area, but I learned a lot and got it completed. I am very happy with the adapter and can already see the Idemitsu going through the OMP lines (different color - light yellow) and about to reach the engine.

I am very pleased with the results and glad I got it. Next up - Exhaust.

Good writeup. I have an adapter sitting in my garage....am waiting until I get the engine issues resolved with the recall...and I hope to install soon.

excellent, will wait to hear how it works for ya.

This would be a great long term trial - I hope you do lots of miles Jax so you can soon give some feedback on the long term advantages of this.

While it has only been a few hundred miles since I have added, It seems that the soot on the exhaust tips is much, much less (I cleaned after installing the OMP Adapter on purpose to check).

I think this is due to the Idemitsu burning cleaner than engine oil and also because I do run FP60 in the gas as well (cleaner, lubricant, and contributes to more complete combustion).

I will keep monitoring and let everyone know how things look longer term.

Hey Jax!

Haven't heard from you for awhile on this mod. How is it working?

Although I believe this could be a GREAT mod because of it's burning cycle-2 rather than motor oil that has already been cycling through the engine and crudding up; My concern with this mod/Adapter is that if you are running the stock flow settings through the OMP, how do you know that the amount of cylce-2 oil supplied to the engine should be the same as the amount of motor oil you were running through the engine? Are the lubrcating/combustability properties of the two types of oils that similiar? Because even with the Adjuster, you could actually control the amount of flow, but how do you figure what that correct amount should be? Short/long term effects of the amount being wrong because it is a different oil and is untested would be my concern. Unless, like I said, they are that similiar?? I hope that's the answer!!

Also with premixing...I still see the benefit of premixing with this mod because it will lubricate parts the OMP system doesn't. (I know this isn't exactly what you are doing), but wouldn't folks want to run the same cycle-2 in the premix that you are running through the OMP? Then there wouldn't be any mixing of oils at combustion. Just seems it would be the best setup if this all works.

Then, of course, Synthetic motor oil would be "absolutely" OK, because none is getting injected into the engine. Kill that HUGE Thread. WooHoo!!

This just seems like this is something Mazda could have developed because of the obvious benefits; Except for the also obvious concern of the ordinary car owner letting the resevoir run dry because they never checked it! Although an indicator light and sensor in the resevoir may work?

There's something good here me thinks!!

This just seems like this is something Mazda could have developed because of the obvious benefits; Except for the also obvious concern of the ordinary car owner letting the resevoir run dry because they never checked it! Although an indicator light and sensor in the resevoir may work?

They could put a level sensor in there and add a gauge to the dash. I'd be fine with adding it whenever necessary. I think it'd be more idiot proof than having to check the dipstick every other fill-up or so. This way you'd know exactly how much you have left. Heck even put a big red warning light when it gets low! Sounds like something someone could make a lot of money off of if they produced it.

Issues:

Container material, size and shape and where to mount it. (I'd like to keep my windshield fluid)

The oil would be cooler when injected because it's in a separate container and not the engine. Is that better or worse?

Would it be Ok just sitting in a container in the engine compartment? (Temps, time for it to be used, etc.)

If you just put engine oil in a side resevoir it would at least be more clean and an improvement. But I kind of assume the stock OMP flow settings using cycle-2 would be ok??? Anybody?

Yes the OMP calls for what the engine needs using 2 cycle oil is fine in that respect, at least it's made to be burned, many rx7 owners have gone this route. "even RG" The variable version is more for ppl that want to FI their engines or go different routes like in planes or boats.

Why would this mod be just more geared toward FI?

If you ran 'clean' reg. oil or cycle-2 oil instead of 'used' oil through, I think that would be a benefit to any engine (especially longterm). The oil that is pumped through the OMP is more for lubrication than performance. I know the two kinda go hand in hand, but what I mean is that nobody is gonna do this mod for the X amount, if any, of HP it will give. It's for a better/cleaner running engine, which is still performance based to an X degree, but also maintenance & care based.

I think any setup would benefit to some degree from this mod. It would come down to cost vs. benefit. A very subjective topic of any mod. And a personal preference.

I just don't think we should give the impression that this is only for FI.

sry my mistake read jax second post at the start of this thread, there are 2 models of this adaptor available. the standard one is perfect for the rx8, the second is for use with engines without computer control or needing more oil flow which is adjustable, that is what I was refering too. :)

Hey Jax!

Haven't heard from you for awhile on this mod. How is it working?

Although I believe this could be a GREAT mod because of it's burning cycle-2 rather than motor oil that has already been cycling through the engine and crudding up; My concern with this mod/Adapter is that if you are running the stock flow settings through the OMP, how do you know that the amount of cylce-2 oil supplied to the engine should be the same as the amount of motor oil you were running through the engine? Are the lubrcating/combustability properties of the two types of oils that similiar? Because even with the Adjuster, you could actually control the amount of flow, but how do you figure what that correct amount should be? Short/long term effects of the amount being wrong because it is a different oil and is untested would be my concern. Unless, like I said, they are that similiar?? I hope that's the answer!!

Also with premixing...I still see the benefit of premixing with this mod because it will lubricate parts the OMP system doesn't. (I know this isn't exactly what you are doing), but wouldn't folks want to run the same cycle-2 in the premix that you are running through the OMP? Then there wouldn't be any mixing of oils at combustion. Just seems it would be the best setup if this all works.

Then, of course, Synthetic motor oil would be "absolutely" OK, because none is getting injected into the engine. Kill that HUGE Thread. WooHoo!!

This just seems like this is something Mazda could have developed because of the obvious benefits; Except for the also obvious concern of the ordinary car owner letting the resevoir run dry because they never checked it! Although an indicator light and sensor in the resevoir may work?

There's something good here me thinks!!

1. Working great - love this mod.

2. 2 cycle oil lubricates better for this use because it just has to focus on one-time lubrication needs and does not have to worry about lasting a long time, so the additive package is built for that purpose. I use Idemitsu Rotary Premix, which is even more specifically designed lubricate rotary engines/seals. No worry's here.

3. Using the Adjuster - This is a add-on piece to the standard Adapter. If you add this, you are manually controlling the fixed flow rate. I am not using this as I think it is overkill for a NA motor. FI motors could use and would just have to experiment a little (setting at the middle setting) and monitoring usage to get it where they are comfortable.

4. Premixing - personal choice to continue to supplement. May get to "hard to reach" places easier, but this is just speculation by many. Could use adjuster to add more oil instead of Premixing, just a convenience factor. I personally use Lube Control FP60 as it add some more lubrication (kinda like premixing), but I use it more for the excellent cleaning to further reduce any exhaust port clogging.

5. Does make Synthetic oil debate a moot point.

6. Like RotaryGod said before, if you are under your hood so little that the tank that lasts 1000-3000 miles could run dry, you need a different car.

sry my mistake read jax second post at the start of this thread, there are 2 models of this adaptor available. the standard one is perfect for the rx8, the second is for use with engines without computer control or needing more oil flow which is adjustable, that is what I was refering too. :)

Not 2 models, just one Adapter.

You can buy the Adjuster separately if you want to manually control the OMP flow rate (controlling base rate and automatically increasing by RPM) instead of using the computer controller

Gaaaaah Another mistake :(

Jax, what do you mean when you say you love this mod?

Does it feel like the engine actually runs smoother?
Are your exhaust tips cleaner? A lot or a little?
Is it just the comfort of clean burn & not having to check the oil dipstick every other fill up?

How does the Idemitsu feed through the OMP? Does the resevoir need to be higher for gravity feed? Or does the pump pressurize the line from your resevoir?

How long has the Adapter been on your car and how much Idemitsu is used up? Can you tell yet?

Sorry for all the ???, but this mod really interests me.

Jax, what do you mean when you say you love this mod?

Does it feel like the engine actually runs smoother?
Are your exhaust tips cleaner? A lot or a little?
Is it just the comfort of clean burn & not having to check the oil dipstick every other fill up?

How does the Idemitsu feed through the OMP? Does the resevoir need to be higher for gravity feed? Or does the pump pressurize the line from your resevoir?

How long has the Adapter been on your car and how much Idemitsu is used up? Can you tell yet?

Sorry for all the ???, but this mod really interests me.

Happy to help

1. Hard to tell if car runs smoother since it is still very new (1800 miles total) and runs great already. I do have the latest computer flash. Exhaust tips are cleaner, but they still do develop some soot - I think it is somewhat less due to cleaner burning 2-cycle oil and some due to the FP60.

2. I did it for the better lubrication and cleaner burning to avoid the longer term carbon and exhaust port buildup issues many have had. Overall I think this is a better solution that Mazda should have done in the first place, but did not because they did not think the general car buyer would maintain the 2-cycle tank.

3. While many have considered a separate tank, and I actually bought one, in the end I decided to use the washer tank as it is large, secure, and thick at the base to easily tap with a barb fitting. I then used a standard 1/4" gas hose connected to the new barb running down to the barb connection on the adapter. This is gravity feed and tank must be 6 inches above the Adapter barb connector to provide enough gravity pressure to properly feed.

4. I have run about 500 of fairly easy driving miles since I have installed and have used about 1/8 quart so far (I marked a line on the tank to measure usage, so this is best guess so far as I have not added any oil yet). Note that the rate of usage will be the same as if it was drawing oil from the sump - which will vary based on how hard you drive the car.

5. I agree with your earlier statement that this mod is good for all motors, not just FI motors, and I recommend for all. FI motors would likely want the Adjuster as well so they can feed more oil via the OMP to handle the additional stresses (or they can premix)

Hope this helps

Non-FI - the OMP would inject cycle-2 oil at the stock settings, which so far everyone seems to agree would be correct.

FI - Would require a different setup. Adjuster may not be applicable.

Maybe you'd just want to get the Adapter and premix the extra in the tank for the different driving conditions. If the system failed (stock or with this mod) you'd still have oil coming in through the premix.

Did you take any pics while you worked? :rolleyes:

Did you take any pics while you worked? :rolleyes:

No because there was already a very good DIY with great picks and there was really nothing more I could add other than tips.

ugggg

Firefox can't find the server at www.turborenesis.com

Unless I'm reading this wrong on the Roataryaviation web site...The Adjuster does give you more oil flow, but at a fixed amount. You would have to set the Adjuster at the max condition flow rate needed to ensure enough oil under the most extreme driving condition you may encounter. But that means oil flows at that high rate all the time regardless of RPM, boost, etc.

Racing Beat's OMP mod still uses the 60 settings, but widens the higher RPM port/piston in the OMP so more oil (approx. 31 % according to their web site) flows in higher RPM & Load conditions. While idle, light throttle, and low RPM remain at the stock flow rates by leaving that port/piston in the OMP the same. This seems to be a much better application for FI.

You could still use the Sohn Adaptor to pull two stroke from a separate resevoir. But the Sohn Adjuster seems impractical for the RX-8.

If you want more than Racing Beat's 31% increase (which is probably conservative) you could always premix a set rate in the gas tank and add more for different racing applications.

The BIG question is...Does the Adjuster set the oil flow rate to a set amount and bypass the 60 OMP settings or not?

ugggg

Firefox can't find the server at www.turborenesis.com

Same here.

jird20

ugggg

Firefox can't find the server at www.turborenesis.com

GTAW put up this site and I cannot acces it anymore either. May want to send him a PM to see if he still has this hosted somewhere else.

The BIG question is...Does the Adjuster set the oil flow rate to a set amount and bypass the 60 OMP settings or not?

See this thread for answer (we have two going on now)

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=107838

I would make sure a large, clear label on the washer fluid tank indicates that it is not to be filled by any overzealous gas station (less likely at a dealership) attendant.
Just imagine the mess you'll get if someone would add windshield washer fluid on top of your 2T oil...

Someone has a mirror of the document in turborenesis.com? It isn't in google cache or archive.com :-(

has anyone used a seperate oil tank for the 2-stroke? i'm going to order the adapter but would like to spare my washer fluid tank. i have found several tanks online but can't figure out where i would mount it. any input would be great. thanks!

^ DAMN!! Take that man's information off that post! WTF are you thinking?

done

^ DAMN!! Take that man's information off that post! WTF are you thinking?Sorry - did not mean to post the whole copy, just the domain info.

has anyone used a seperate oil tank for the 2-stroke? i'm going to order the adapter but would like to spare my washer fluid tank. i have found several tanks online but can't figure out where i would mount it. any input would be great. thanks!bump

ugggg

Firefox can't find the server at www.turborenesis.com

Site back up.

Here is the updated OMP Install page:

http://www.turborenesis.com/OMPinstall.html

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95436&stc=1

You should be able to tell what oil I'm using just by the color :>


Boy was the Sohn adapter a pain to install though. I had to remote the batt, then to remove the OMP I needed to remove the passenger tire... then couldn't reach the bolts properly without taking off both turbo tubes. Couldn't do that without removing the front bumper. Also had to remove the under tray. Then I couldn't get one out of the three bolts to thread. Had issues with making the Sohn adaptor fit to the side of the engine - turns out he's got amazing clearances, it's just SLIGHTLY too big, but screwing in the 3 bolts will push it into place, no way this thing is going to leak.

I'm not sure how well the clear fuel tube will hold up, might have to replace it. At least that part will be easy.

btw, I used my washer fluid container...

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=95478&stc=1

I might want to see what the clear OEM container costs and get that instead. But this thing will be able to hold enough oil to last longer than several oil changes.

You want to be sure not too get too large of a tank because the better two-stroke oil you use, the shorter the shelf life, especially once it has been opened.


Oil and Fuel oxidize - that is why I also add about 1oz of Lube Control's LC20 (not FP60) to each quart of Idemitsu premix as I add it to my tank. LC20 is an oil antioxidant and cleaner - helps prevent oil oxidation/breakdown of the 2-cycle once opened and exposed to air.

Good move, Jax. I was searching around for BG Synchro II and found the Mitsu guys use it often in the Evo. I found it for $8/qt. at Buschur racing and close to that from ProStreetOnLine. What are you paying for it?

Make sure it is the Syncroshift II for that price, which is a full synthetic. If it is, that is a great price as I see it in the $10-15/qt range.

Normal Syncroshift (dino) - I'm pretty sure they still make it - is less and around the $6-8 price range you stated.

I read on the OMP install page that he put in a breather. It looks like the cap breaths enough .. anyone have any idea how much the OMP pulls? I don't want to expose the oil to more than I have to. Even a gentle squeeze on the washer fluid bottle shows that air easily escapes and gets sucked back in.

I read on the OMP install page that he put in a breather. It looks like the cap breaths enough .. anyone have any idea how much the OMP pulls? I don't want to expose the oil to more than I have to. Even a gentle squeeze on the washer fluid bottle shows that air easily escapes and gets sucked back in.

I have the clear tank with a yellow cap. The yellow cap has a very small hole in the top to allow air in as oil is used, but not too much to prevent spilling. I do not think any changes are required here as I have not seen any issues with enough ventilation for proper flow with mine.

I agree with you -- the test cited in the DIY article says flow is effected if you use the tiny hole vs cap open, but considering the amount of flow that will actually take place, I don't think it will matter. I mean.. it's about 1 quart of oil every 2 months that will go through.

I just wanted to check what everyone else was doing.

btw, It's been two days since I put in the mod (Drove maybe 50 miles). I don't yet see any purple oil in the OMP tubes. How long did it take to start to see flow?

I'm just anxious - Want to make sure there's no flow issues :)

It looses the color almost right away - probably on the first one or two drive cycles. Look at the color on the dipstick.

btw, It's been two days since I put in the mod (Drove maybe 50 miles). I don't yet see any purple oil in the OMP tubes. How long did it take to start to see flow?

I'm just anxious - Want to make sure there's no flow issues :)

I was anxious too for the oil to start feeding through the OMP lines - it took 2-3 hundred miles for the oil to go into the lines all the way to the motor. Obviously, if you run it harder, it will happen faster.

You may also notice some small air pockets in the lines (about 1/2 inch long) as well that will have to work there way out - not be a concern and will bleed out as well.

sweet. Last question:

The male and female connectors turn and move. The connector on the side of my engine didn't seem to move. Does it move to adjust flow on the MOP? Or is it stationary?

sweet. Last question:

The male and female connectors turn and move. The connector on the side of my engine didn't seem to move. Does it move to adjust flow on the MOP? Or is it stationary?

The connector on the side of your engine does move, but may have been fixed/still while the motor is off. I do not recall if my motor connection was fixed or free moving, only that I had to take great care to align these connector "keys" for the adapter and OMP itself.

These keys are used to adjust the base flow rate for the OMP based on load (and can be fixed if you like with the "adjuster") - and the flow increases from the base with RPMs via the "stepper" some refer to.

The breather just helps with the flow. It's nothing more than just a small piece of the puzzle. I always like to take a little more precaution with any modifications I do. I also tend to take a different direction with everything I do, but for a good reason. (at least in my mind :D:)

The way I see it, it's too much money to turbocharge the renesis engine and not pay attention to the fine details. I also run the aluminum adjuster from Sohn along with premix, but then I can just hear how many rx8club experts will say it's overkill.

Is the same the oil consumption (injected oil) with the Sohn adapter as with the original MOP (engine oil)?

Maybe the MOP uses a little part of the engine's oil pressure, to get the right amount of oil injecting to the chambers.

With the Sohn adapter, the MOP can't get engine's oil pressure, just a little by the gravitation.

the sohn adapter definitely eats oil at the same speed as stock. I now have the oil in a clear washer fluid bottle and I'm almost down a quart in just about my usual 3,000 miles

the sohn adapter definitely eats oil at the same speed as stock. I now have the oil in a clear washer fluid bottle and I'm almost down a quart in just about my usual 3,000 miles

Agreed - I am using at the exact same rate before and after - 1 qt to 3000-3200 miles.

I think I'm closer to 2100 - 2500 miles per quart. But it's hard to estimate because the bottom of the washer bottle is much thinner than the top. My usual rate is somewhere around 2500-3000 per quart, but I'm not driving my car as much as I used to since I'm working from home a lot more these days. When I do take the car out, I thrash it around, so burning more oil should be expected.

I was originally very concerned because of the tubes leading from the omp to the engine wasn't the color of the oil I was using. The tubes remain discolored, but I'm very sure it's burning the oil, so I'm quite happy with this mod.

The OMP is indeed a pump, the engine will see the same amount of oil with this adapter, unless you are using the adjuster.

Is the same the oil consumption (injected oil) with the Sohn adapter as with the original MOP (engine oil)?

Maybe the MOP uses a little part of the engine's oil pressure, to get the right amount of oil injecting to the chambers.

With the Sohn adapter, the MOP can't get engine's oil pressure, just a little by the gravitation.

The OMP is indeed a pump, the engine will see the same amount of oil with this adapter, unless you are using the adjuster.

I reassembled a Renesis MOP. It can't work as a pump. I did not see any parts in it, which can build up any pressure. I think, the engine gets the oil by the vacuum of the expansion, and by the regulated (low) "main" oil pressure which push the oil in to the MOP.

I took apart an oil metering pump and was unsure at the time if it was really a pump. I didn't cut into mine to see the inner workings of the unit. It seemed like more of a regulator to me at first, so I contacted Richard Sohn about this and this is what he had to say:

The OMP is a true, positive displacement pump. However, it is not self priming. Meaning, the oil inlet has to be full of oil in order for the OMP to pump. The OMP is using a piston and ports for controling the stroke, there are no valves.
For the above reason, all it requires is an oil tank, which is located higher than the pump, assuring oil in the inlet at all times.

In the MAZDA engine, this is achieved by maintaining a small over pressure from the engine oil system.
I have tested this function on the bench, in addition to the no-leaking through the OMP when the engine is not running.

I hope this answers the questions.

Regards,

Richard Sohn
8029 HWY 1087
DeFuniak Springs, FL 32433

Thanks for these important infos.

What I don't understand:
There are two pistons in the Renesis MOP which are fixed. There are cylinders (with a lot of holes) around these pistons. These cylinders only (and really only then) move up and down, when the stepper motor changes the position of the excentric shaft of these cylinders. It's happen very rarely - only when the engine's working parametrics are changing. So the two pistons with their cylinders only decide the amount of the oil, doesn't push it to the nozzles. So the question is: How can make pressure the MOP?

As I said earlier, I think the engine gets the oil from the MOP by the vacuum. The small over pressure from the engine oil system gives a little more pressure to the system, without it, the amount of the injected oil must be smaller. Maybe only a little smaller.

I don't want to be cleverer than RS, but I tried the MOP, driving it by an electronic driller, and I did not see any sign of oil pushing (pressure).

The piston pump stroke is variable and controlled by ports? How is that? There has to be some control, or a relief valve, otherwise the flow would be entirely determined by engine speed.

ayrton012 did you take pictures of the disassembled pump? What is the input shaft connected to? When you drove it with the drill, how did you ensure it had oil at the input (Sohn adapter?).

ayrton012 did you take pictures of the disassembled pump? What is the input shaft connected to? When you drove it with the drill, how did you ensure it had oil at the input (Sohn adapter?).

I used a tank, connected to the MOP with pipe. The connection of the pipe and the MOP was well sealed. I'm absolutely sure in this moment, that the MOP can't work as a pump. Now only one thing has left which I would like to know, how much is the importance of the oil's pressure, which get the MOP?

Ayrton, don't you think that dissassembling a pump and claiming that "I'm absolutely sure in this moment, that the MOP can't work as a pump. " is a little arrogant? "The operating principle of this simple pump escapes me, so it cannot possibly work...." might not be more accurate?

I can see immediately how it works, just from that photo if the parts. Mechanics 101.

The key is the thread on the two "driven" shafts - the contact area is much longer than it would be if it remained stationary, therefore it slides.
The cams on the bottom of the driven gears provide the pumping action, the stepper twists the lobes on the control shaft to vary the length of strokes - this isn't rocket science.

Thanks for the picture, I've always wondered how that works.

S

Well, I had to change my point of view.:banghead:

Look at the picture! The push rods are always turning when the engine working. The push rod's ends is waved so as the rods are turning, its move up and down. This up and down moving is controlled by the eccentric shaft. Bigger at high rpm's... So the MOP is a pump!

The last question: is the gravity feed same with the pressurized feed?

gets more lodgical to modify the needles for more pump flow.
olddragger

The follower surfaces on the rotating shafts appear to ride on the circular part of the control shaft so no amount of stepper motor rotation would change their stroke length.

There seems to be a center movable rod in those shafts that actually contacts the cam on the control shaft and this would be affected by stepper motor rotation. It could be that this rod is connected to a stationary piston (positioned by the stepper) which is enclosed by reciprocating cylinders. The cylinders have holes in them so that relief occurs at points dependent on the position of the piston.

And what about those needles? where are they? Are they in fact inside those cylinders (if that is what they are), rather than pistons (what I thought they might have been)?

gets more lodgical to modify the needles for more pump flow.

It was not the question now. I beleived that the MOP can't pressurize the oil to the nozzles. But now I have to say, I was wrong.:banghead:

At least you are man enough to admit you were wrong .... ;)

At least you are man enough to admit you were wrong .... ;)He has no reason to admit he was wrong because he never was. Look at his post. He says 'I think....', 'what I don't understand...', How can make pressure the MOP?' 'I don't want to be cleverer than RS...'

These are statements of someone who is trying to find the truth. You might compare his post with StealthTL who first reprimands him for his arrogance and then points out his stupidity. This is then followed by his own conduct which almost exactly mimics the conduct he ridiculed.

Thanks for understanding!:)

Four more pictures to understand the MOP's working too.

Great pictures ayrton012. May I suggest some terminology so there is no confusion:

Eccentric shaft: Is in the engine, the equivalent of a crankshaft in a piston engine.
Pump input shaft: engages the eccentric shaft through a key and internal engine gearing. It contains two worms that engage two gear shafts.
Gear Shafts: On one end they are keyed to pistons and in the other they contain cutouts that engage the circular part of the control shaft. They also appear to contain a central protrusion (button) which engages a cam on the control shaft.
Control Shaft: Is connected to a sector gear that is in turn geared to the stepping motor. The stepper rotates the control shaft which positions the cam.
Pistons: Contain holes and simultaneously rotate/translate via a keyed connection to the geared shafts.
Valves: Are inside the pistons

I had thought the small button on the bottom of the gear shaft was actually the end of the valve that protruded through a hole in the gear shaft. However it now appears that this is not the case, and the buttons are in fact part of the gear shaft. So this is what I think we know so far:

-The pump input shaft rotates at half the speed of the eccentric shaft.
-From the pictures, the geared shafts appear to be identical and appear to have about 16 teeth (Is this where your 16 comes from), so they would turn at 1/16 the rate of the input shaft, and 1/32 the rate of the eccentric shaft (can you better explain the 1/36 if that is what you really mean)
-The piston simultaneously reciprocates and rotates. Its reciprocating rate is twice its rotation rate.
-When the control shaft is rotated, the cam engages the button on the geared shaft, and prevents it from fully seating on the control shaft.
-The maximum axial position of the pistons occurs when hemispherical cutout on the geared shaft is at right angles to the control shaft.
-The piston stroke moves down from there. The maximum length of stroke is when the flat part of the cam is at right angles to the axis of the button (geared shaft).
-The valves are fixed in position.
-The springs only serve to return the piston and ensure the geared shaft is always in contact with the control shaft.

Any Comments?

And then there are more questions:

-If this is a positive displacement pump whose stroke rate is controlled by engine speed, and whose stroke length is controlled by the PCM, then what are the valves for?
-What is the direction of oil flow and are the valves on the inlet or outlet?
-Are the four holes in the pistons related to the four outputs? And why are two of these holes drilled at an angle? And at least one of the pistons has two more holes on the other side.
-What is the relationship of the valve steps and the piston holes.
-What do the inside of the cylinders (that the pistons slide in---part of the casting) look like? They must have grooves of some sort.
-what is the position of the cam when the sector gear is at zero position (against the mechanical stop)?
-Why could no flow be observed when the pump input shaft was rotated with a drill. Is it just too low?

From the pictures, the geared shafts appear to be identical and appear to have about 16 teeth (Is this where your 16 comes from), so they would turn at 1/16 the rate of the input shaft, and 1/32 the rate of the eccentric shaft (can you better explain the 1/36 if that is what you really mean)

Yes, you are right, i really wanted to write 1/32.

The pump input shaft rotates at half the speed of the eccentric shaft.
-From the pictures, the geared shafts appear to be identical and appear to have about 16 teeth (Is this where your 16 comes from), so they would turn at 1/16 the rate of the input shaft, and 1/32 the rate of the eccentric shaft (can you better explain the 1/36 if that is what you really mean)
-The piston simultaneously reciprocates and rotates. Its reciprocating rate is twice its rotation rate.
-When the control shaft is rotated, the cam engages the button on the geared shaft, and prevents it from fully seating on the control shaft.
-The maximum axial position of the pistons occurs when hemispherical cutout on the geared shaft is at right angles to the control shaft.
-The piston stroke moves down from there. The maximum length of stroke is when the flat part of the cam is at right angles to the axis of the button (geared shaft).
-The valves are fixed in position.
-The springs only serve to return the piston and ensure the geared shaft is always in contact with the control shaft.

Absolutely, as you said!

-If this is a positive displacement pump whose stroke rate is controlled by engine speed, and whose stroke length is controlled by the PCM, then what are the valves for?

We know that the valves (according to your term.) are fixed. When the piston (one of the two) move "down", it's inside is filling up with oil. When the pistons move up, te fixed valves are pushing the oil out from the inside of the pistons (and from the MOP) to the oil nozzles. According to these: when the pistons are filling up with oil, the piston's holes are connected to the other holes of the MOP ( to the "filler" holes). After that the piston rotates and it's holes get connection with the MOP's outer holes (to the nozzles), just then when the piston moves up and the oil is pushing out from it's inside, by the fixed valve. I hope you know what I mean!

-Are the four holes in the pistons related to the four outputs? And why are two of these holes drilled at an angle? And at least one of the pistons has two more holes on the other side.

Some of the holes are for filling up with oil the piston, and some of them are for let out the oil to the nozzle's way. These holes are changing their positions by the pistons rotating and vertical moving (up and down in my theory, but if you see the MOP on the engine it's horizontally moving). Every piston has two out (to the nozzles) holes in the MOP's housing. So only two holes of one piston can get connection in the same time with the two MOP's out (to the nozzles) holes. When this holes are connected this way, the other holes are closed. So the oil has only one way to get out from the piston. The closing of the other holes is caused by the MOP's house and the pistons position. Of course when the piston gets the oil, the out (to the nozzles) holes are closed, and so on....

-What is the relationship of the valve steps and the piston holes.

One of the pistons inside are bigger (more oil), and the other has smaller. Some engine's working phase (low rpm) only the smaller piston work, which is caused by the control shaft. In some phase (high rpm,VOT)all of the two pistons are working.

-What do the inside of the cylinders (that the pistons slide in---part of the casting) look like? They must have grooves of some sort.

The piston's inside is just like a cylinder. See them like the piston is a cylinder, and the fixed valves are the pistons. In this case the cylinder moves up and down, and the pistons are fixed.

-Why could no flow be observed when the pump input shaft was rotated with a drill. Is it just too low?

Yes, the driller was to slow, and I used too big diameter pipes at the out of the MOP, so now I think that test was false. Otherwise the oil dropped out sometimes these pipes. I was not convinced by the drops. But now i think the low rpm caused this weak "oil out".

What would happen if the small needle assembly was swapped for a large one ( would they fit??).....with 2 large bore needles the pumping capacity would be much larger at low loads.....

What would happen if the small needle assembly was swapped for a large one ( would they fit??).....with 2 large bore needles the pumping capacity would be much larger at low loads.....

Yes, the larger one outer diameters are the same with the smaller one. I tried, the fitting is ok.

The pumping capacity will be much higher at low and high rpm too. I think that would be too much oil for the engine.

Well done ayrton012. From what you have found out, I think a redefinition of terms is needed. May I suggest:

-Needle Valves: There ain't none. Forget about it. Don't got no stinkin' needles.
-Needles become pistons.
-Pistons become cylinders.
-Cylinders become, say, housing.

Do you know:
-Which direction the pump shaft turns?
-How do you know that the pump shaft turns at 1/2 the eccentric shaft?
-Are the two gear shafts offset such that as one cylinder moves out the other moves in (180 degree motion out of phase, but 90 degree relative pump shaft orientation), or do they both move together.
-Why do you have this pump? Did your original fail?

I am interested in the above because it pertains to me possibly getting a extra pump.

Do you know why the pistons have steps in them? Do the cylinders also have stepped bores?

-Which direction the pump shaft turns?

You see it on the pics below.

-How do you know that the pump shaft turns at 1/2 the eccentric shaft?

I turned the flywheel of a Renesis by hand, and watched the MOP's driving .... . This engine was out from a car, in a Mazda service shop. It was allowed for me (thanks for them).

-Are the two gear shafts offset such that as one cylinder moves out the other moves in (180 degree motion out of phase, but 90 degree relative pump shaft orientation), or do they both move together.

I don't know exactly, because this MOP was inspected (assembled out)before I've got it, so maybe the positions of the parts was not the original. But we know, - as you see on the second pics - the position of the shaft's cam are the same. Otherwise there are some differences between the two cams, because only the one of the cylinders moves up-down (a little) when the engine's rpm is low.

-Why do you have this pump? Did your original fail?

It is not mine, but it was replaced because of failing in an other car.

Do you know why the pistons have steps in them? Do the cylinders also have stepped bores?

Yes.

I have one more though. The cylinders (mainly the one of them) have little oil filler holes(where the cylinder inside is filling with oil). These holes are in contact with the holes of the MOP's housing, for a very liitle time, mainly at high rpm. Is the gravity feed (RS adapter)pressure enough to fill the cylinders, or the engine oil pressure is better (original)? Or the little vacuum in the cylinder's - after pushing out the oil to the engine's nozzles - is help to fill them with oil?

What would happen if the small needle assembly was swapped for a large one ( would they fit??).....with 2 large bore needles the pumping capacity would be much larger at low loads.....

You could probably just interchange the two piston/cylinder assemblies. Then the large piston would be delivering the oil most of the time.

I have one more though. The cylinders (mainly the one of them) have little oil filler holes(where the cylinder inside is filling with oil). These holes are in contact with the holes of the MOP's housing, for a very liitle time, mainly at high rpm. Is the gravity feed (RS adapter)pressure enough to fill the cylinders, or the engine oil pressure is better (original)? Or the little vacuum in the cylinder's - after pushing out the oil to the engine's nozzles - is help to fill them with oil?

As far as I can see, nothing will fill the cylinders except the force of the springs pushing them away from the pistons and creating a vacuum. The external pressure does no good because it is equal all around (I assume the holes evident in the end-cap area connect to the oil gallery), but something must be there to ensure everything is submerged in oil. The cylinders have static surfaces on both sides and on very cold days when the oil is viscous, the forces required to shear the two thin oil films can be quite high. It makes you wonder that if the springs are not strong enough to completely force the cylinders and pistons apart quickly enough, whether the stroke length could be reduced.


I just got a used pump and am going to look at it internally, but I don't want to screw it up. Can you tell me:

- What failed in the pump you have? I appears to be in good shape (electrical?)?
- If you look into the outlets, you will see four brass screws with the slots all lined up the same way. Have you removed any of these, and if so what do you see, including the accesses in the housing?
- Are there any press fits, or does the whole thing disassemble without forcing anything?
- The wire colours on the pump connector do not match those that appear on the schematic, at least for the pump side of the connector (I have not looked at the harness side). For example both the center wires are supposed to be W/R (white base, red stripe). Do you see these colours on your pump connector?

As far as I can see, nothing will fill the cylinders except the force of the springs pushing them away from the pistons and creating a vacuum. The external pressure does no good because it is equal all around (I assume the holes evident in the end-cap area connect to the oil gallery), but something must be there to ensure everything is submerged in oil.

Yes, maybe the vacuum the only one thing, which responsible filling the cylinders with oil, and the external pressure is equal all around in the MOP...But.. the external pressure is *separated from the inside of the cylinders. The pressure only then can get into those, when the filler holes are connected.
*separated: of course the oil film is the only sealing between the parts. The cylinder's end (one of the two end side) is closed, and the other side of it is closed by the piston.

- What failed in the pump you have? I appears to be in good shape (electrical?)?

Yes, it had electrical problem. The stepping motor stopped in limp mode.

If you look into the outlets, you will see four brass screws with the slots all lined up the same way. Have you removed any of these, and if so what do you see, including the accesses in the housing?

I did not remove these screws, but I tried that these screws does not separate the inner and outer part of the MOP's outlet. There are a little bore in the center of these screws.

- Are there any press fits, or does the whole thing disassemble without forcing anything?

You can easily disassemble everything, except the casted main house.

You can see my wiring on the pics.

I'm glad that you got a MOP. I hope it will help our efforts to solve the mystical MOP theme.:)

...I forged about the viscosity: I always thought, that a 0w- oil is better, using the MOP.

Thanks for the picture ayrton012. The wires appear to be the same as mine, and certainly not what appears in the schematic, although this may only refer to the harness side.
I did not remove these screws, but I tried that these screws does not separate the inner and outer part of the MOP's outlet
I don't quite understand. Do you mean to say that you tried to remove them but were unable to?


I'm glad that you got a MOP. I hope it will help our efforts to solve the mystical MOP theme.:)See this post for results of an initial investigation.
Pre-Phase 1 – MOP Basic Data Gathering (see post #1 for views)

I don't quite understand. Do you mean to say that you tried to remove them but were unable to?

No, I did not try to remove them. I just used a narrow pin, and recognized that there is a bore in the center of these screws. So the screw"s function is narrowing the MOP's outlet bore.

Pre-Phase 1 – MOP Basic Data Gathering (see post #1 for views)

This link is not working for me.

Click on the little arrow after my name in the quote box, not the underlined heading below it (which I agree looks like a link).

Hard to believe that the screws just present straight through tiny holes. The holes could have just been drilled directly from the top if that is all that was needed. Why go to the bother of making large holes and then closing them off with brass screws? Also, the screw slots are all lined up (in my pump at least, and exactly 90 degrees to the cylinder bores - are they in yours?), all of which suggests there is probably more to their function than meets the eye (maybe a check valve to keep oil from draining back from the outlet lines when the car is sitting?). I will eventually look when I am better organized to take the pump apart but feel free to take a shot at it in the meantime if you're curious enough.

Thanks, the link is working!
You were right. The "screws" are valve! But, as you see on the pics, the valve only according to the cylinder1 outlet. The valve screw broke apart when I tried to get it out. I don't know how these were fixed in the factory(maybe pressed)?

Great stuff! sorry you broke the screw - I'll help compensate you for it if you want to try and repair it. Right now I'm going to be away for a week or so, and will take a better look at the picturese when I get back.

Great stuff! sorry you broke the screw - I'll help compensate you for it if you want to try and repair it. Right now I'm going to be away for a week or so, and will take a better look at the picturese when I get back.

Thanks, but this MOP is only for analyzing. I don't want to rebuild it.

OK I'm pretty sure I know how this thing works now.

First of all take a look at these attachments (courtesy of two rotors). It doesn’t tell you how it works but it shows some internal porting.

Secondly, there is a saying that if all rational attempts at explaining some phenomenon fail, then the explanation lies in what has been perceived as irrational.

We have to give up the idea that all outlets are created equal. More specifically, two of the outlets have different flow than the other two. Look at the outlets straight on with the end cap region (spring chamber) to the right. Call the top left outlet #1 and count going counterclockwise, so the top right outlet become outlet #4. Then outlets #1 and #2 have less flow than the other two.

If you look at the picture in ayrton012’s last post showing the four outlets you will see a couple of metal balls that have been forced into holes that seal holes drilled from the outside which penetrate into the common oil gallery shown in the attached figure. If you look to the side of the housing (not visible in photo) you will see four sealed holes. One of the top two were drilled to connect outlets #1 and #2 with the angled hole in the cylinder encasing the small diameter of the small piston. The other top hole connects outlets #3 and #4 with the angled holes in the cylinder encasing the big diameter of the small piston. These holes discharge into the top part of the outlets, that is above the check valves. The bottom holes do the same but for the big piston, with the discharges being below the check valves.

So here’s how it works. In the attached figure you see all diameters of all pistons sucking up oil from the oil gallery. As the cylinders are simultaneously rotated 90 degrees and pushed towards the cylinder, the angled holes come in line with say drilled holes leading to #2 and #3 outlets, both above and below the check valves. Further rotation of another 90 degrees and retraction of the cylinders brings the other side of the cylinder inlet holes into contact with the oil gallery for sucking up oil. Another cycle and outlets #1 and#4 receive oil. Each outlet is assured its share of oil.

A couple of questions remain. For one, why should there be two separate oil flows? It is unlikely that the differences stem from the front and rear rotors. More likely is that the differences between the services that the side seals see depending on whether they are located in the end or intermediate housings. There seems a lot more action going on for the volume of material in the intermediate housing. Both rotors discharge their exhaust there. Also most of the intake is going on there. The highest temperature in the system (exhaust) is separated from the lowest (intake) by just a short distance. It would seem therefore that the two nozzles discharging on either side of the intermediate housing might get more oil (outlets #3 and #4)

The other question is – why the check valves? I believe the reason for this is that the big piston is not pumping most of the time. It is only brought in for extreme requirements. Most of the time the cylinder encasing the big piston simply spins without reciprocating. Because the oil flows from the small piston are so very low, it could be that a significant portion could leak through the big cylinder/piston assembly and the check valves are there to prevent that.

The other question is – why the check valves? I believe the reason for this is that the big piston is not pumping most of the time. It is only brought in for extreme requirements. Most of the time the cylinder encasing the big piston simply spins without reciprocating. Because the oil flows from the small piston are so very low, it could be that a significant portion could leak through the big cylinder/piston assembly and the check valves are there to prevent that.

I agree with you!

For one, why should there be two separate oil flows?

I don't think there are different oil flow between the two nozzles per rotor(engine), and between the two rotor. There are only minimal time delay between the oil flow of the nozzles.

I don't think there are different oil flow between the two nozzles per rotor(engine), and between the two rotor. There are only minimal time delay between the oil flow of the nozzles.

Are you saying that you think all four nozzles receive the same amount of oil averaged over time? The oil delivery is pulsed and so there is a small time delay between deliveries but what I am saying is that on average, outlets #1 and 2 receive less oil than outlets #3 and 4.

Pardon the interruption here, but I'm in need of some expert guidance.

Let me preface this by saying that I have never owned a rotary, but I am highly interested in getting an RX-8. They are such hot looking cars, and I am intrigued by the engineering of the Renesis engine.

From what I've gathered it appears that the Sohn OMP Adapter is a near-perfect solution to the Renesis' apex seal failure issue. I say near-perfect because it still requires extra effort (relative to a piston engine) from the owner--installation, maintaining both engine oil and apex seal oil. But this is surely no more difficult than working with the OEM setup. You already have to top up regularly, but you can enjoy the extended oil change interval of synthetic oil. And you have the peace of mind that you won't end up a member of the New Engine Club. So... why isn't everyone with an RX-8 doing it?

The only two stoppers I can think of are (1) fear of voiding warranty and (2) disinclination to dedicate time/money towards maintenance. I can understand the latter because people would rather spend their time doing other things, especially if they are under warranty. However, I (and others on this forum I'm sure) am in it for the long haul, and warranties expire. My current vehicle has been very reliable ('96 Infiniti G20), and I wouldn't buy a new car if I wasn't confident it would last.

And since using the right oil for each job is nothing but good for the engine, how could this mod void the warranty? This is where I'm stuck. I can only point to "unofficlal" sources for evidence that using the adapter will make the engine perform more reliably. It makes perfect sense to me, but I'm no rotary expert. (What are the apex seals made of anyway? an elastomer of some kind?) And I don't doubt that Mazda would try to void your warranty for it, even though they can only legally do so if it caused the problem.

So, beyond the argument given by Richard Sohn in post #2 in this thread, what evidence do we have that his adapter will improve the long-term reliability of the Renesis. It is clearly evident that it is good for a racing application--Idemitsu premix is labeled "Racing"--but is there a consensus that it is good for a street-driven engine? (e.g. would the OMP injection rate be non-ideal when premix/two-stroke is used instead of engine oil)

.......... but you can enjoy the extended oil change interval of synthetic oil.

You don't have your eight yet, but have already made an assumption that is not backed up by data.

Who said synthetic is "not ok" if it is injected/burned?

Who said a Sohn adapter makes synthetic "acceptable?"

S


(The seals are made of iron......)

Apex Seals
If you look at the attachment I included a couple of posts ago, Mazda says the oil injection is for the side seals. I don't know exactly what the Apex seals are made of but they are of a hardened metal. In fact for the Renesis, they claim to have introduced some new hardening technology (electron beam I believe). I don't know about the Apex seal failure issue, but I do know the stress put on these cars varies enourmously with drivers. My guess is that any issues are due simply to the fact that this car attracts a larger proportion of people who frequently like to push the engine to its limits.

Some Possibilities as to why Mazda didn't do it
-There is no benefit, or possible harm, to using a separate oil reservoir for injecting more 'suitable' oil. I have looked for but have not found anything that could be called scientific evidence as to its effects. One area I have been concerned with is the pressure needed to fill the cylinders, particularly at the cold temperatures (high oil viscosity) where I live. This pump has very little capability of sucking in oil. I asked Richard about this pressure and he responded with "This pressure has not been measured, however, the oil enters the OMP right at the outflow of the oil into the oil pan. This can only be visualized on the actual hard ware, since a real picture of it does not axist to my knowlege". I may eventually attempt to measure this pressure and do some bench testing at different temperatures to see how oil flow is affected.
-If there is benefit, it may not be significant enough to outweigh the negative marketing reaction towards the car from non-enthusiasts because of the need of a separate oil reservoir. I'd put my money on this one.

Warranty
By installing this adapter, you would be introducing another level of responsibility, with the onus on yourself to ensure you knew why you overrode Mazda's reasoning for not doing it that way, and that you fulfilled your responsibility of ensuring the reservoir never ran dry. If an engine failure could be traced to the targeted area (say the side seals) then it is my belief that you could justifiably have a fight on your hands.

Are you saying that you think all four nozzles receive the same amount of oil averaged over time? The oil delivery is pulsed and so there is a small time delay between deliveries but what I am saying is that on average, outlets #1 and 2 receive less oil than outlets #3 and 4.

Look at the picture! All the outlet gets the same oil amount. There is 180 degree (cylinder) delay between 1-3 and 2-4 outlet, but the amount is the same.

One area I have been concerned with is the pressure needed to fill the cylinders, particularly at the cold temperatures (high oil viscosity) where I live. This pump has very little capability of sucking in oil. I asked Richard about this pressure and he responded with "This pressure has not been measured, however, the oil enters the OMP right at the outflow of the oil into the oil pan. This can only be visualized on the actual hard ware, since a real picture of it does not axist to my knowlege". I may eventually attempt to measure this pressure and do some bench testing at different temperatures to see how oil flow is affected.

I think for the reason of the cold oil flow the 0w-xx oil is very important in the Renesis, and better if the xx=20 or 30. ..and I would like to know how much is the importance of the original oil pressure in the cylinder's oil filling? It is the non answered question, why I did not ordered the OMP adapter until now.

Look at the picture! All the outlet gets the same oil amount. There is 180 degree (cylinder) delay between 1-3 and 2-4 outlet, but the amount is the same.
Well the first problem we have here is that there is a misidentification of outlets. Here's how I identified them in my recent post --- "Look at the outlets straight on with the end cap region (spring chamber) to the right. Call the top left outlet #1 and count going counterclockwise, so the top right outlet become outlet #4". So:
my #1 is your #4
my #2 is your #2
my #3 is your #1
my #4 is your #3
Ok forget my convention, we'll use yours since you have them nicely identified in a picture. We agree on which holes are inlet and which are outlet in the cylinders.

Now look at the pistons that fit inside the cylinders (from your earlier pictures). There is a small and large piston, each with a small and large diameter portion, so there are four diameters in total. Let's identify these as:
SPSD - Small Piston Small Diameter
SPBD - Small Piston Big Diameter
BPSD - Big Piston Small Diameter
BPBD - Big Piston Big Diameter

Notice that the outlet of the cylinders that connect to outlets 1 and 3 are fed only from the big diameters of both pistons - SPBD and BPBD. Outlets 2 and 4 are fed by the small diameters of both pistons SPSD and BPSD. Therefore outlets 1 and 3 will always receive more oil that outlets 2 and 4.

There is not a 180 degree delay between 1-3 and 2-4 outlet. #1 and #2 are fed at the same time but separately, #1 with the small diameter of both pistons, and #2 with the large diameter of both pistons. After 180 degrees of cylinder rotation, #3 and #4 are separately fed, #4 with the small diameter of both pistons, and #3 with the large diameter of both pistons.

Mr Ploppity (great name)- having run without the adaptor for 21/2 yrs and listened to what everyone here has said I have seen no compelling reason to fit it .
If you are concerned about seal failure - just run a little premix as added insurance . These people that go on about crankcase oil being "bad for the engine" have nothing to back that up with other than - "eeew doesn't it look dirty" .
Also there is nothing I have ever seen on here that proves that running synthetic will make our engines last any longer . How many renesis failures have been caused by worn bearings & gears ?

My assumption that premix is a better lubricant than engine oil (synthetic or conventional) for the Renesis' side seals (not apex seals as I'd said above, thanks Delmeister)--comes from Richard Sohn:

"When engine oil is getting into the combustion chamber, it only is burning partially, leaving some unburned deposits behind. These deposits can build up and reduce engine performance. One obvious method of preventing this is to disconnect the metering pump altogether and mix two-stroke oil to the gasoline like some older two-stroke engines require. With this method it has been demonstrated that two-stroke oil is an effective lubricant and there is no build up of combustion residues. [He says "it has been demonstrated", but has it?] The Metering Pump Adapter...takes the solution one step further in allowing to still using the stock metering pump but supply it with two-stroke oil."

The FAQ makes it clear that "occasional aggressive driving is good...it helps prevent carbon buildup in the engine." This "carbon buildup" must be the "unburned deposits" Sohn claims can be prevented with his adapter. So why wouldn't you use it? It does make owning an RX-8 appear too complicated--thus Mazda wouldn't build them this way--but it seems to me it only requires extra effort on the front end. And the rest is all upside. Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you guys on this product. (If anything I'm trying to sell myself on an 8.) Rather, i'm looking for evidence to support Richard Sohn's claims. Is there any out there?

What I meant about "enjoying the extended oil change interval of synthetic oil" was that with the adapter the condition of the oil in the crankcase will no longer affect the lubrication of the side seals. So you can increase your oil change interval without compromising this important (and apparently sensitive) seal.

Yes there is probably some truth in all of that but we all form our own opinions unless confronted with irefutable evidence .
The thing is that only tiny amounts of oil are injected anyway and if you do plenty of aggressive driving (like I do) , I doubt the increased carbon build up from using crankcase oil vs 100% premix oil will be an issue .

Now look at the pistons that fit inside the cylinders (from your earlier pictures). There is a small and large piston, each with a small and large diameter portion, so there are four diameters in total. Let's identify these as:
SPSD - Small Piston Small Diameter
SPBD - Small Piston Big Diameter
BPSD - Big Piston Small Diameter
BPBD - Big Piston Big Diameter

First of all, thanks for using my "outlet numbers".
You will see my thoughts on the attached pics as my answer to your quoted rows.

Those areas do not do the pumping. They are just recesses, probably to facilitate oil inlet. It is the other two surfaces that are the pistons. Those surfaces fit snugly in the cylinders, prevent leakage, and do the pumping as the cylinders are reciprocated. It is better seen in the attachment I included a while back.

Mr Ploppity (great name)- having run without the adaptor for 21/2 yrs and listened to what everyone here has said I have seen no compelling reason to fit it .
If you are concerned about seal failure - just run a little premix as added insurance . These people that go on about crankcase oil being "bad for the engine" have nothing to back that up with other than - "eeew doesn't it look dirty" .
Also there is nothing I have ever seen on here that proves that running synthetic will make our engines last any longer . How many renesis failures have been caused by worn bearings & gears ?
A refreshing stand. To ask for evidence can make you an enemy of the state on this forum sometime.

Mr Ploppity (great name)- having run without the adaptor for 21/2 yrs and listened to what everyone here has said I have seen no compelling reason to fit it .
If you are concerned about seal failure - just run a little premix as added insurance . These people that go on about crankcase oil being "bad for the engine" have nothing to back that up with other than - "eeew doesn't it look dirty" .
Also there is nothing I have ever seen on here that proves that running synthetic will make our engines last any longer . How many renesis failures have been caused by worn bearings & gears ?


that is your own personal preference and please don't take this as trying to convince you one way or another. I would just like to add that there have been rotaries around for much, much longer than this car. This car has not been out long enough to really conclusively say what does or does not work in the long term. You may have no problems with no premix and no secondary 2-stroke injection but joe blow might have a seal failure. Was it the oil or carbon buildup in the combustion chamber? who knows? Mazda is not saying. my point being - to see what has been proven look to the rx7 guys and see what has worked there. Those have been around for quite a while and had many many more miles put on those blocks. The drivers and aftermarket for those cars have come up with many innovative solutions to extend the reliable lifespan of a rotary motor.

mac11--given that Mazda has been involved in the rotary longer and to an infinitely greater depth than any RX-7 guy, why do you think the company does not use separate oil injection?

^^ way too complicated for anyone but a true rotorhead......Most drivers i know have a hard time remembering to check ONE oil level......

mac11--given that Mazda has been involved in the rotary longer and to an infinitely greater depth than any RX-7 guy, why do you think the company does not use separate oil injection?

First of all, I would like to reiterate that my statement was not to try to convince anyone either way of what to do on this issue or even advocate that its a must have product. Think of me as Switzerland on the issue. I do NOT have this part fitted on my personal vehicle. My entire intention was only to say look to the rotary history for guidance - not necessarily in this instance - but in general.

But for the entertainment value I will entertain your question. Along with what danobre just posted another great answer was already posted in this thread. Adding a separate tank for injection oil would "appear" to the general public that the car was "too much hassle" or "so much extra maintenance" that it would lose favor and sales. When magazines reviewed the RX-8 and gave it rave reviews they included things like "we were disappointed in how much oil this car burns." And these were from automotive journalists who had driven the RX-7s and should have known better than to knock the engine for doing what it was designed to do. I could only imagine the drivel to spew from those pages had they had to spend ALL THAT TIME AND EFFORT topping up an auxiliary oil tank every few thousand miles.

that is your own personal preference and please don't take this as trying to convince you one way or another. I would just like to add that there have been rotaries around for much, much longer than this car. This car has not been out long enough to really conclusively say what does or does not work in the long term. You may have no problems with no premix and no secondary 2-stroke injection but joe blow might have a seal failure. Was it the oil or carbon buildup in the combustion chamber? who knows? Mazda is not saying. my point being - to see what has been proven look to the rx7 guys and see what has worked there. Those have been around for quite a while and had many many more miles put on those blocks. The drivers and aftermarket for those cars have come up with many innovative solutions to extend the reliable lifespan of a rotary motor.

fair enough - few would argue that premix is not beneficial . However the benefit of the RS adaptor is less certain .
I don't think the tiny amount of crankcase oil injected is likely to be a problem for my engine due to the way I drive - to others who baby the engine it may be .

I agree with you mac11, and I think that the following is a fair assumption:

Everyone is watching, and Mazda is paranoid about making this engine introduction a success.

This leads to my questioning this
- few would argue that premix is not beneficial .

Once Mazda decided to take the hit on the bad publicity relating to oil consumption, I doubt it would compromise the engine by not giving it enough oil. Because some oil is good, it doesn't necessarily follow that more is better.

I personally don't add oil. I fill to maximum, drive till the level reaches minimum (~5000 km), and then dump the oil.

I agree with you mac11, and I think that the following is a fair assumption:

Everyone is watching, and Mazda is paranoid about making this engine introduction a success.

This leads to my questioning this


Once Mazda decided to take the hit on the bad publicity relating to oil consumption, I doubt it would compromise the engine by not giving it enough oil. Because some oil is good, it doesn't necessarily follow that more is better.

I personally don't add oil. I fill to maximum, drive till the level reaches minimum (~5000 km), and then dump the oil.


Not saying you have a bad plan but its been pretty well documented that oil consumption has been gradually leaned out since the late 80's. It probably won't matter much to most people because they won't own the car long enough or put it into the types of situations to experience a seal lubrication related failure. Heck, maybe mazda really has just been advancing their seals further and further to the point where they need this much less oil to stay in good shape. That actually wouldn't surprise me either. But you do get better sealing and compression when you have more oil. Someone who works for a mazda dealership said recently that the new electronic tool that is used for compression checks and determining if an engine gets replaced under the recall has the ability to crack open the MOP to 60 (full open). And they do this for about 5 minutes before retesting a car that has just fail the test by a slim margin before retesting. That is a hard and fast admission, by Mazda, that they know more oil will create higher compression and better sealing.

But you do get better sealing and compression when you have more oil. Someone who works for a mazda dealership said recently that the new electronic tool that is used for compression checks and determining if an engine gets replaced under the recall has the ability to crack open the MOP to 60 (full open). And they do this for about 5 minutes before retesting a car that has just fail the test by a slim margin before retesting. That is a hard and fast admission, by Mazda, that they know more oil will create higher compression and better sealing.

So what do they do about the engine if it then passes? If the engine deteriorated to the point where it just failed, the now excessive leakage will probably accelerated the rate of further deterioration.

Oil will aid in sealing and is useful for diagnostics and that is about all that Mazda is admitting. But what are they admitting to for continuous operation? Do they tell you to get more oil in there?

That is something you would have to take up with Mazda. I have no answers. Only passing along what I know.

None the less, an excellent piece of information, Mac!

S

Shortly after I suggested there was an unequal distribution of oil delivered to the nozzles, I discovered a serious oversight in my reasoning. I now have to say that:
The nozzles get equal oil deliveries!


What I overlooked was that when the vacuum is being created by the big diameter portion of either piston, the small diameter portion is moving into the space and reducing the amount of space available for drawing in oil. The volume created depends on the difference in the cross-sectional area of the two diameters. I only recently got an opportunity to measure the diameters, and as it turns out, the cross-sectional area of the large diameters of both pistons is twice that of the small diameters, so the difference is just the cross-sectional areas of the small diameter. Here's the proof:

Small Piston
Small Diameter - 1.82 mm. Cross-sectional area = (Pi/4)*D*D = 2.60 square mm.
Big Diameter - 2.58 mm. Area = 5.23 square mm.
Difference in cross-sectional areas = 5.23 - 2.60 = 2.63 square mm (~ to the small diameter cross section within measurement accuracy)

Big Piston
Small Diameter - 3.84 mm. Area = 11.58 square mm.
Big Diameter - 5.43 mm. Area = 23.16 square mm.
Difference in cross-sectional areas = 11.58 square mm.

wait,wait,wait. sorry for the noob needing more info here. so this adapter modification lets you "bypass" engine oil to be used in the omp? so how does it work again exactly?

long thread...but from what i think, it uses the omp motor and uses another housing as a source for the 2 stroke lube(windshield washer reservoir). so does this mean that the omp motor will be lubed itself from the additive(2 stroke fluid) from the windshield washer reservoir? therefore cancelling any drain from the crankcase oil for oil consumption?

really nice if anyone can help again with an explanation as i would be interested in using this mod. but just unsure if the omp motor will be running on engine oil or the 2 stroke oil. and if it is the 2 stroke oil...will the omp be reliable then???

thanks

btw, new rx-8 owner...still under break-in miles. noob to this forum. 2nd rotary car, but noob to the new systems.

if i'm asking weird basic questions, its because i haven't even got the chance to look around and understand the new systems, yet. been a honda technician, but when it comes to rotaries, i'm stomped.

You got it. The whole point of the adapter is to substitute premix oil for engine oil as the OMP's source. No more engine oil consumption through OMP. Doesn't completely eliminate engine oil consumption, though.

You provide the reservoir. The windshield washer reservoir is a convenient option. Unless you value the ability to wash your windows on the road. Of course, with the 8, you probably visit the gas station enough that you're never too far away from a squeegee. :lol2:

Don't see why this would make the OMP itself less reliable. If anything it'd be more reliable since it's pumping cleaner oil.

Shortly after I suggested there was an unequal distribution of oil delivered to the nozzles, I discovered a serious oversight in my reasoning. I now have to say that:
The nozzles get equal oil deliveries!


What I overlooked was that when the vacuum is being created by the big diameter portion of either piston, the small diameter portion is moving into the space and reducing the amount of space available for drawing in oil. The volume created depends on the difference in the cross-sectional area of the two diameters. I only recently got an opportunity to measure the diameters, and as it turns out, the cross-sectional area of the large diameters of both pistons is twice that of the small diameters, so the difference is just the cross-sectional areas of the small diameter. Here's the proof:

Small Piston
Small Diameter - 1.82 mm. Cross-sectional area = (Pi/4)*D*D = 2.60 square mm.
Big Diameter - 2.58 mm. Area = 5.23 square mm.
Difference in cross-sectional areas = 5.23 - 2.60 = 2.63 square mm (~ to the small diameter cross section within measurement accuracy)

Big Piston
Small Diameter - 3.84 mm. Area = 11.58 square mm.
Big Diameter - 5.43 mm. Area = 23.16 square mm.
Difference in cross-sectional areas = 11.58 square mm.

It's great that you say the nozzle's oil volume is the same.
I would like to measure how much is the real difference between the bigger (or the little one) piston's two oil holder volume. I'm not sure that there are difference.

For the same stroke length, the big piston to small piston deliveries will scale according to their cross-sectional areas, i.e. 11.58/2.6 = 4.45. The question is how do the individual stroke lengths depend on stepping motor position, and how does stepping motor position depend on engine demands. I have the means of finding this out. Someday I will get around to doing it.

ayrton012

In attempting to measure the stroke lengths as a function of step position, I found that it took 22 revolutions of the input shaft to get two strokes of the cylinder housing the small piston, and 11 revolutions for the large (i.e. the large revolves and reciprocates twice the rate of the small). Earlier you indicated that for two strokes, it took 16 revolutions for both.

Would you please check this. Aside from operating it, could you also re-count the teeth on the gears and take a closer look at the worms. In particular look to see if one of the worms is a double thread. I would do this myself, but I still have some testing to do and don't want to disrupt things if I can help it. Thanks.

Seeing as you guys have delved into this quite deeply . Is there a simple way to stop the oil flow from the omp without setting off a cel ?
I want to do away with it and premix in the fuel tank .

So you've gone from healthy skeptic to total convert. I'm gonna have to try that pre-mix someday.

You can do this to stop the MOP from delivering oil.
Remove the end-cap plate, pull out the pistons. remove the springs, replace the pistons, re-place the springs but this time over the piston caps, replace the end-plate.

I went out to see if this could be done without removing the pump. I was able to get a screwdriver on a couple of the screws but it was difficult to turn. Removing the battery and battery box should make things much easier.

Hold the plate when removing the last screw, otherwise the springs could send the plate and pistons flying. I've done this on the bench and everything runs fine, although the springs were facing vertically and easy to reposition. On the vehicle the springs face horizontally and will be more challenging to hold in place when replacing the plate. Note that I did not check to see if the flow stopped. I only reasoned it had to.

thankyou for that mr meister

What kind of oil is everybody using? And the cheapest place too buy it? I've been searching online for Idemitsu oil for a while now, but they don't seem too make 2-stroke oil for this idea...

Can somebody point me towards a good oil, because I thought I would be buying Idemistu...

What kind of oil is everybody using? And the cheapest place too buy it? I've been searching online for Idemitsu oil for a while now, but they don't seem too make 2-stroke oil for this idea...

Can somebody point me towards a good oil, because I thought I would be buying Idemistu...

I use Idemitsu rotary premix... been using it for a little over 10,000 miles now

wait, so your telling me your using straight up Idemitsu Racing Rotary Fuel Lube (Premix)

The orange bottle on this site? (http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_207.htm)

I don't understand... Don't the apex seals need some kind of lubrication? Isn't oil of some kind needed? Or is it really okay too just be running premix in the combustion chamber all the time? If it is, that'd be awesome... I know that's what your reply is but I'm in semi-disbelief...

pre-mix is oil. It is called pre-mix because you mix the oil with the gas PREvious to it being injected into the combustion chamber.

wait, so your telling me your using straight up Idemitsu Racing Rotary Fuel Lube (Premix)

The orange bottle on this site? (http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_207.htm)

I don't understand... Don't the apex seals need some kind of lubrication? Isn't oil of some kind needed? Or is it really okay too just be running premix in the combustion chamber all the time? If it is, that'd be awesome... I know that's what your reply is but I'm in semi-disbelief...

yes, the ones that I use is in a black container but it's the same premix. and just like what mac said, the rotary premix is oil...

For the same stroke length, the big piston to small piston deliveries will scale according to their cross-sectional areas, i.e. 11.58/2.6 = 4.45. The question is how do the individual stroke lengths depend on stepping motor position, and how does stepping motor position depend on engine demands. I have the means of finding this out. Someday I will get around to doing it.

See below (Click on the arrow after my name).
I've measured the stroke lengths of the two cylinders in the MOP as a function of the stepping motor step number. The results are shown in the first graph. The remaining graphs are based on calculated theoretical discharges.

In attempting to measure the stroke lengths as a function of step position, I found that it took 22 revolutions of the input shaft to get two strokes of the cylinder housing the small piston, and 11 revolutions for the large (i.e. the large revolves and reciprocates twice the rate of the small). Earlier you indicated that for two strokes, it took 16 revolutions for both.

Would you please check this. Aside from operating it, could you also re-count the teeth on the gears and take a closer look at the worms. In particular look to see if one of the worms is a double thread. I would do this myself, but I still have some testing to do and don't want to disrupt things if I can help it. Thanks.


A took a look on its again! What you say is OK. The revolutions are 11 and 22. I don't remember how I wrote 16 earlier and 32 earlier.
The two driving worns has the same number of teeths. 22 teeths. Only the driving shaft two toothing has difference, there are different between the camber (degree of tooth) of the two toothing. Of course between the two driving worns toothing has the same difference, because of the exact connection with the driving shaft's teeths.

Great. I took a chance that this was the case and assumed these relationships in the calculations on pumping rates that I presented in the other thread. You might want to check these.

I believe that what you are witnessing when you say the worms have different angles but still mesh with the gears is the difference between a single and a double thread cut on the worms. To check this, look at the ends of the worms. One should have a single starting point and the other should have two. Alternatively, run a pencil point in the grooves. In the single thread, you should move down the shaft one groove per revolution, but should move down two grooves in the double thread.

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I thought it would be better than starting a new one.

The original DIY link is no longer working. Do we have a new one? I'd love to see pics of the install. Also, do you guys still e-mail Richard directly to order one or is there a website? Cost?

Thanks!

http://rotaryinsider.com/post-141.html

Also, do you guys still e-mail Richard directly to order one or is there a website? Cost?

I just ordered one, it was about $104 shipped to me in Canada. He accepts paypal now, just e-mail him directly.

Thanks guys... we should "merge' that DIY into our forums :)

Nice thread, I'm thinking of getting one of these soon.. Maybe combine the install with a coolant flush..

Sorry to bring this back from the dead again.....but what do you guys do about washer fluid? I would assume you disconnect the pump or electronics so you don't spray oil onto your windshield?

you pull out one hose. it's super easy.

http://www.rotaryinsider.com/diy-tac38/sohn-adapter-gap28.htm

Or you do what I did

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v645/3/87/535923601/n535923601_1740919_2119200.jpg

I use Motul 800 road racing 2T :) Double ester fully syntactic. Thicker and not as smooth as cheap 2T. The manual adjuster is giving problem (CEL@P1688 + white smoke). End up with stick the electric motor back to the adapter. Everything works perfectly after that.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p221/malangsia/2Ttank.jpg

Or you do what I did

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v645/3/87/535923601/n535923601_1740919_2119200.jpg

looks like how my setup is gonna look like. how did you do the washer pump? i was thinking of using the one mounted to it but the power connectors are different from the OEM one.

I stripped out all the motors and connectors from the tanks and drilled holes into them them to fit all the stock connectors. Then I glued a barb fitting with silicon to the bottom of the premix tank and relocated the low washer fluid sensor to the premix tank to use it as a low premix sensor :)

No wiring changes and easier to revert if I ever want to.

I looked through the pages and there is not a DIY for this, it almost sounds like you don't even need the adoptor, just run a hose from your pri-mix tank to the pump and your done, is this correct?

I looked through the pages and there is not a DIY for this, it almost sounds like you don't even need the adoptor, just run a hose from your pri-mix tank to the pump and your done, is this correct?



no, that's wrong. where do you think the engine oil that is going into the omp comes from? the sohn adapter blocks that oil.

I want to buy this adapter for my rx8, as i am a firm believer of using 2 stroke oil for oil injection.

BUT

Under the circumstances you might need a new engine, would Mazda void the warranty because of this product?

I want to buy this adapter for my rx8, as i am a firm believer of using 2 stroke oil for oil injection.

BUT

Under the circumstances you might need a new engine, would Mazda void the warranty because of this product?

as stated earlier, revert back to stock.

I stripped out all the motors and connectors from the tanks and drilled holes into them them to fit all the stock connectors. Then I glued a barb fitting with silicon to the bottom of the premix tank and relocated the low washer fluid sensor to the premix tank to use it as a low premix sensor :)

No wiring changes and easier to revert if I ever want to.

how did you make the backing plate? i would think it could not be flat since the hole on the left is mounted farther back on the firewall. did you just use a longer bolt?

Any better DIY's out there for reservoir options? I wanna see all the ideas. I wonder how hard it would be to source tanks locally?

you local boy you!!

you local boy you!!


Why send my money elsewhere if I don't have too. I support local businesses when I can, there are far too many going under. My favorite NAPA store close to my work went under after like 30 years. I was truly saddened because it was the type of place where the workers could tell you what part to get and rebuild your motor at the same time.

I used a bicycle bottle + holder. drilled a hole on the bottom and rtv'd a barb fitting. I made it a habit to check/refill whenever I fill up my fuel tank.

Any better DIY's out there for reservoir options? I wanna see all the ideas. I wonder how hard it would be to source tanks locally?

i got 2 tanks just like TheWulf has pictured earlier. they are a little difficult to source. i PMed a forum member in Canada to buy them for me and ship them to me. the place they will find them is called Princess Auto. AFAIK, they are only in Canada. if i remember correctly, it was about $50 to buy them and have them shipped.

Thanks guys, no luck finding anything locally.

International Plastics Corp.....

Thanks, do you know what they keyword would be? i tried the flash catalog but I still can't find anything under container, resevoir, etc. Thanks.

Strange...must have screwed up the company name...either that or they don't carry the tanks and stuff anymore..I'll look for the invoice from mine and see

how about this

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=34&product_id=32771

That's it :) Knew I screwed up ;)

how about this

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=34&product_id=32771

the problem with those tanks are the mounting tabs on the sides. it would be fine if you only want to mount 1 tank and lose the washer fluid.

the problem with those tanks are the mounting tabs on the sides. it would be fine if you only want to mount 1 tank and lose the washer fluid.
trunk mount the battery and put the tank in the stock battery position

I don't have washer fluid anyways due to my meth injection tank

thought this was cool for premix

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=14953&product_id=26675

that is pretty cool.

how about this

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=34&product_id=32771

trunk mount the battery and put the tank in the stock battery position

I don't have washer fluid anyways due to my meth injection tank

Yep that's the same tank I have, the 1 quart one so it can hold a whole quart of premix. It last a while even with the OMP duty cycle jacked up.

And that's where I mounted my premix tank, hanging off the mounting tabs off the PCM case with some metal brackets I bent up and then painted black so they blend in, you can hardly notice they are there.

Yep that's the same tank I have, the 1 quart one so it can hold a whole quart of premix. It last a while even with the OMP duty cycle jacked up.

And that's where I mounted my premix tank, hanging off the mounting tabs off the PCM case with some metal brackets I bent up and then painted black so they blend in, you can hardly notice they are there.
yeah thats where I got the idea, lol
I remember seeing it that way on your car.

Oh and thanks for the link btw

I was just thinking of a few things. One of those is how Sweet it would be to have a remote mount reservoir like a water injection system. You could have a Huge reservoir in your trunk for Good long Lasting periods. Most of these systems are redundant and will let you know when you run low or pressure has increased in the system.

Interesting idea.

I ordered this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ao7eCCNSL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E35UV2/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

do you have any measurements of this unit? I am trying to think of places one could mount it in the engine bay.

I am winging it but I may move my battery to the trunk. her are the dimensions.

Product Dimensions: 7.5 x 4.2 x 8.2 inches ; 1 pounds
Shipping Weight: 10.4 ounces

Sweet two battery relocation's in one month! I do think that could be a really good thing. If I was to relocate my battery I would order some extra wire and connectors and really do it right.

No matter the size it may still be easier, less expensive and add less weight to put it in the trunk.

A good gauge wire running from the trunk to the engine bay is very heavy in weight..... If I were to guess more the a line with fluid running in it.

I think the problem is the SOHN relies on gravity to pull the premix in. Not sure if you put it in the trunk it would flow right. You would have to have some type of positive pressure on it.

Also, what sealant did others who have installed this use on the gasket?

None,

The gasket is supposed to be the sealant. I suppose one could use silicone gasket seal if they're skeptical over it. But the gasket provided the seal fine for me.

my new reservoir...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/096/7735_83646389942_507964942_624199_5.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/096/7735_83646009942_507964942_624198_7.jpg

damn, copied my front battery mount spot :p:

Nice!! I gotta figure this out this weekend.

damn, copied my front battery mount spot :p:

LOL I didn't even know that's where you relocated your batt, I thought that your battery was in your trunk.

Hey did you guys use any type of sealant on the SOHN gasket?

No, but I don't see it as a bad thing if you want to add silicon gasket sealant. Just keep in mind in as tight of an area as it is to work in there, which is very tight, you're gonna have it messy and plastered all over the place.

Yeah good point may be I'll out some black RTV on before to hold the gasket in place.

Grey RTV is best.....

Grey RTV is best.....


Grey huh? I just happened by advanced autoparts and found what I think to be the perfect reservoir for the premix (yes even though I had already bought one online).

But this one will allow me to keep the battery where it is and not modify the factory windshield washer fluid bottle.

Mine is done, Pics to follow tomorrow!

Oh, and as I was trying to explain to others what it did I found this quote.

But, 2-stroke must burn off without leaving any plug-fouling or detonation-initiating deposits. The detergent and anti-wear additives used in 4-stroke oil leave hard white ash behind when they burn, just what you do not need in a 2-stroke. So 2-stroke oils use low-ash detergents and dispersant s, and the better types use ester synthetics to act as anti-wear compounds.

So What two stroke oil are you going to run now? I think continued pre mixing with Lucas Top cylinder Lube is a good idea until you get your tune to inject more oil.

I used some 2-stroke oil from a local motorcycle shop then switch to Idemitsu of late since it's used in pre-mixing, which is exactly the same thing we're doing with the Sohn Adapter in regards to reaching the seals.

So What two stroke oil are you going to run now? I think continued pre mixing with Lucas Top cylinder Lube is a good idea until you get your tune to inject more oil.

I used the rest of the fully synthetic Pennzoil I had and from now on I am going to use Amsoil Saber pro. I didn't get a chance to mark the bottle to see how much is being used due to the rain but i will tomorrow. Gotta make sure it works, haha!

I used some 2-stroke oil from a local motorcycle shop then switch to Idemitsu of late since it's used in pre-mixing, which is exactly the same thing we're doing with the Sohn Adapter in regards to reaching the seals.

Are you saying premixing in the fuel is the same as the SOHN?

Are you saying premixing in the fuel is the same as the SOHN?

No, I'm saying the oil that is used as premix whether rotary specialized or 2-stroke oil is the same oil you want to apply to the Sohn adapter. I should of worded it better; they're not exactly the same but the main benefit of doing either or is the same. Sohn adapter has the benefit of not mixing the engine oil into the combustion chamber where as premixing alone lubes the injectors and seals more effectively.

I'm looking into later on getting an AP to bump up the oil injection rate.

No, I'm saying the oil that is used as premix whether rotary specialized or 2-stroke oil is the same oil you want to apply to the Sohn adapter. I should of worded it better; they're not exactly the same but the main benefit of doing either or is the same. Sohn adapter has the benefit of not mixing the engine oil into the combustion chamber where as premixing alone lubes the injectors and seals more effectively.

I'm looking into later on getting an AP to bump up the oil injection rate.


Ah, hah. Okay, I misunderstood. Yeah I am looking at getting an AP too when I stop spending money on other crap. Right now I have some Pennzoil marine to use up and then I'll get some good stuff. And I don't have a cat so I'm concerned about using TWC3.

Here is my $10.00 reservoir from Advance Auto Parts.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/34/l_08678c00f78b4445903effdaf5576520.jpg

Does anyone worry about the temperature of the premix? It rarely gets cold her but this morning it was in the low 40's and it got me thinking of what effect cold premix had. I mean I know how hot it is in the combustion chamber but does teh premix temperature going in have any effect on anything?

Anyone?

Does anyone worry about the temperature of the premix? It rarely gets cold her but this morning it was in the low 40's and it got me thinking of what effect cold premix had. I mean I know how hot it is in the combustion chamber but does teh premix temperature going in have any effect on anything?

It's a legitimate question, but it will ultimately require input from someone's experience with cold weather.

The question is weather the oil can be sucked into the pump when it is very viscous. Oil suction depends on a spring pushing on a piston to create a vacuum over a very short period of time. If that spring is not strong enough, or the oil is too viscous to flow sufficiently under vacuum pressure, then a full charge of oil will not be drawn in.

Once the oil is in the pump, the outlet stroke is positive. The oil will be forced out no matter what (or else break something).

With regard to your concern about injection temperatures, don't worry about it. It takes a relatively long time for the oil to make it from the pump to the injection nozzle. This coupled with the fact that the tiny tubes are not insulated means that the oil temperature will reach the ambient temperature of the surrounding engine bay, regardless of the temperature it had on the start of its journey.

Yeah, I was trying to find a diagram to see what route it takes through the rotor housing to get to the oil injection nozzles to see if it would be heated by the time it gets there.

And there is also the time it spends in the pump itself which will be hot because to the metal to metal contact with the engine. Again, the question is whether the oil will get into the pump in the first place under extreme cold weather conditions.

Yeah good point. It does not get too cold here but maybe I should put some premix in the fridge to see how it flows when cold.

Yeah good point. It does not get too cold here but maybe I should put some premix in the fridge to see how it flows when cold.

you could find some info like whats given here to get educated on this::: scroll down..

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/tdr.aspx

Yeah so it's probably like five times thicker even at 100 degrees F. Wow. Funny though that the synthetic Pennzoil Marine I'm using has a much better viscosity at 100C than the Amsoil Racing stuff. saber pro has a better viscosity at 100C than my Pennzoil does the viscosity index is not much better so..............Have to look up Idemitsu.

http://pennzoil.com/documents/Pennzoil+Marine+Premium+Plus++2-Cycle+Oil.pdf

Okay so the Idemitsu's number are actually lower than the Pennzoil and it is pretty thick at 40C. The idemitsu's flash point is also 26+ degrees higher as well although I assume that is not really and issue in a premix. Glad I looked that up.

Amsoil Saber Pro:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atp.aspx

Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus:

http://pennzoil.com/documents/Pennzoil+Marine+Premium+Plus++2-Cycle+Oil.pdf

Idemitsu racing Rotary Fuel Lube:

http://www.ilacorp.com/images/web_premix.pdf

Good info!

Good info!


Think you could fab up a "Premix Reservoir Warmer"? :D:

lol Geeze honestly I think the idea of a of a premix warmer if you have gotten to that point is a bit crazy. A pump pumping the thicker compound is only going to pull the fluid a bit quicker cuz it is more dense. If one is not worried about clogging there cat or fouling there spark plugs ESP in our weather I absolutely see no reason to run a bottle heater.

Could one be fabbed for the Northern stats absolutely and most likely very cheep! In your case I think it is more then moot point x10.

In your case without a cat and your BHR coil kit you are mostly bomb proof for any extra premix/2cycle you throw at it esp with your stock ECU.

The problem is that I'm not sure how much of a pump it is. I just worry that when the viscosity id above 50 it won't be able to pull in down from the reservoir. I dunno, maybe I'm going crazy.

I am not an expert in anyway on the Mazda OPM used on any rotary engine but I am fairly sure if the fluid was thicker and unless frozen and unable to drop from the reservoir it would for the most part "pending on the pump type" actually pump faster then normal.

Okay so I just got an email back from rotary aviation and they said 2 stroke oil has thinners in it that enable it to mix with gas and that these same thinners allow it to be pumped even in very cold temps such as what a plane sees at altitude. She said it has never been an issue for the Renesis powered aircraft.

as stated earlier, revert back to stock.

So if your engine dies, you need to have it towed home to revert, and then towed to the dealership. Not a huge deal. But what about if you need to bring it in to the dealership for de-flooding, PCM flash update, etc.? Wouldn't they make note of the SOHN adaptor installation if you brought it in for other reasons than dead engine? In that case, you'd need to tow twice plus do the uninstallation and reinstallation of the SOHN, for everytime that you bring the car in to the dealership. It's too bad that Mazda would make an issue of the SOHN in the case of the pre-'09 8's, seeing as how the purpose is to extend the engine life.

Most Techs wouldn't notice it on routine dealer trips....it's not like they would be looking for something down there ;)

If you have a big deal happen...like an engine failure...you could easily go back to stock before you took it in

It would be a " think before you took it in" Mod

do you think you could set the adjuster to max, and mix in you're premix with the oil as well, and not have to premix?

or should one have this AND still premix

Does anyone know what the adjuster looks like? Now it has me thinking since I did not adjust anything. Mine seems to use a lot of premix, just wondering. I bought mine new but second hand so I'm not sure if I have the adjuster.

Hey does anyone here know what rate they are using premix? It seems I am burning through it pretty quick. I had to add half a quart tonight and I just topped off last week.

Hey does anyone here know what rate they are using premix? It seems I am burning through it pretty quick. I had to add half a quart tonight and I just topped off last week.

no responses to either of our questions, the waiting begins...:sad:

I know, where are all the SOHN owners?

Do you think you could be using quicker due different viscosity of the mix? My oil use has seem to gone up since it has been cold.

Not sure. The factory system is designed to use hot oil. I actually think it's a good thing its using it at a good rate but I'm also curious about the adjuster bit.

Have you checked you plugs? It may be a good idea to clean them wait 3k and check them again with a control.... IE a friend who dose the same with out Richard plate. You need a Wide band EGR.

I'm actually planning on changing the plugs soon just for shits and giggles. I don't trust that they actually did it when they installed my motor so I wanna know it was done.

EGR, I actually was thinking of that. the same company that makes the oil temp gauge makes and EGR gauge.

A wide band is the way to go. Innovate make a Very good unit at a good price and it can even tie into many good aftermarket ECU units.

Ok, just a heads up to fellow SOHN owners or to be owners; be wary of those bolts you get with the kit.

Story:

I bought and installed mine in summer of '09. While tightening one of them it would barely get snug and kept turning and turning. I've wrenched on multiple motorcycle aluminum engine blocks and know how tight of a feel I can go before stripping aluminum threads so I knew I wasn't any where close to doing so. I put up with it since it was a hassle doing everything and barely had a leak once in a while.

Yesterday during my mod-fest I pulled it off to fix it thinking worst case I would have to put a heli-coil in the block which I was doubtful of. Turned out the screw was about to break off due to shear stress. The screws that come with the kit state 8.8 on it and were either a) a poor batch, b) from a poor manufacturing process or c) are not strong enough for the job. The screw was stretched and tapered down to the point of almost twisting off. Keep in mind as I stated above, this was hardly even snug tight when it started turning over and over.

RIWWP had 1 of his screws on the extended manifold up top snap not even getting it up to typical tightness. I'm wondering if Richard got his screws from the same supplier Mazda does. Perhaps not, but I'm already skeptical over some of the bolts on this car and anytime I upgrade plan on getting stronger grade American bolts (if these weren't already which would surprise me if they are) on this thing from now on.

So be warned, there is a chance you can snap that bolt or twist it drastically before even coming to proper tightness on this adapter and the car in general. I got lucky it didn't snap off in the block of I would of been screwed last year having no other car to drive until it got fixed. I'm glad I ordered a spare gasket with the adapter just in case since the 1st one is quenched to death from not being tight enough against the block because of that one screw.

9k: There is no adjustment on the adapter itself but one can be ordered. All it does is set a fixed rate and doesn't vary the amount via RPM. They use it for aviation since they keep a fixed speed and it shouldn't be used for our cars. The pump acts like a vacuum pulling the oil in so I would make sure you have some vent in the reservoir.

Good info :) Thanks for the info on the adjuster, the site is not very informative. I should order another gasket just in case. So where did you get a new bolt from?

I'm going to stop by the local hardware store since that have a very extensive selection of screws/bolts and see if i can find anything the proper length/pitch/size to do the job. If not I'll go by the auto store and see if they got anything. Worst case I'll take something from work here as my company uses only Metric being based in Netherlands and we have a crap load of stock hardware for the machines we build lol.

since you are the only one to report this I am willing to lean on the side of there just being a problem with your install.

I've got grade 8 bolts metric bolts holding the axle/spring pack together on my lifted tow vehicle, I've got those crappy metric threads holding a supercharger to the same aluminum block you were talking about and many many many other places.

If you feel like drilling and retapping everything on the car for SAE standard threads that's your opinion, but I believe you will be in the minority on that one.

good luck.



Ok, just a heads up to fellow SOHN owners or to be owners; be wary of those bolts you get with the kit.

Story:

I bought and installed mine in summer of '09. While tightening one of them it would barely get snug and kept turning and turning. I've wrenched on multiple motorcycle aluminum engine blocks and know how tight of a feel I can go before stripping aluminum threads so I knew I wasn't any where close to doing so. I put up with it since it was a hassle doing everything and barely had a leak once in a while.

Yesterday during my mod-fest I pulled it off to fix it thinking worst case I would have to put a heli-coil in the block which I was doubtful of. Turned out the screw was about to break off due to shear stress. The screws that come with the kit state 8.8 on it and were either a) a poor batch, b) from a poor manufacturing process or c) are not strong enough for the job. A proper selected screw/bolt should not deform or strip before the mating threads do and worst case strip the those threads and not the bolt's. The screw was stretched and tapered down to the point of almost twisting off. Keep in mind as I stated above, this was hardly even snug tight when it started turning over and over.

RIWWP had 1 of his screws on the extended manifold up top snap not even getting it up to typical tightness. I'm wondering if Richard got his screws from the same supplier Mazda does. Perhaps not, but I'm already skeptical over some of the bolts on this car and anytime I upgrade plan on getting stronger grade American bolts (if these weren't already which would surprise me if they are) on this thing from now on.

So be warned, there is a chance you can snap that bolt or twist it drastically before even coming to proper tightness on this adapter and the car in general. I got lucky it didn't snap off in the block of I would of been screwed last year having no other car to drive until it got fixed. I'm glad I ordered a spare gasket with the adapter just in case since the 1st one is quenched to death from not being tight enough against the block because of that one screw.

9k: There is no adjustment on the adapter itself but one can be ordered. All it does is set a fixed rate and doesn't vary the amount via RPM. They use it for aviation since they keep a fixed speed and it shouldn't be used for our cars. The pump acts like a vacuum pulling the oil in so I would make sure you have some vent in the reservoir.

since you are the only one to report this I am willing to lean on the side of there just being a problem with your install.

Lean all you want. The screws were properly installed meaning no re-threading from improper angle and were brought up to snug tight before turning a typical 1/4 turn to fully tighten. The one I mentioned would not tighten past snug (barely snug at that) and kept rotating. So no, I didn't install it improper. It's not rocket science to install a screw and tighten. The only other possible thing that could of happened is I overtightened it which as I explained, I did not. I think after years of wrenching on my vehicles, race cars, and aluminum blocks as well as working with this daily at my company I have an idea what to do vs what not to do danke.

I've got grade 8 bolts metric bolts holding the axle/spring pack together on my lifted tow vehicle, I've got those crappy metric threads holding a supercharger to the same aluminum block you were talking about and many many many other places.

Not sure why you state it in such a way to make it look like I think metric is crappy. It's not the thread type, it's the manufacturing process or alloy strength that did it. When I stated American made, it meant ones made here and that was if they weren't already. I know for a fact there is a great issue with suppliers getting their fasteners outsourcing to cheaper areas overseas, particularly China. We've dealt with that crap enough times here at my company.

I stated it could be any of 3 things, wrong grade is one of them but I didn't say it was THE problem. Read more thoroughly next time.

If you feel like drilling and retapping everything on the car for SAE standard threads that's your opinion, but I believe you will be in the minority on that one.

Looks like you did think I meant resorting to a different thread by stating re-tapping, a little pre-assumptive exaggerating are we? I didn't state the notion of re-tapping anything. I simply implied my preference of switching to fasteners I know are made here with better quality than what I've experienced so far on the car when I need to replace them.

I don't care if I'm the ONLY one with this issue. My post was a warning and caution to anyone else who installs the adapter w/ the screws I received or the car in general. If you read what I posted you would see I mentioned another member who wound up snapping his bolt on his extended manifold when he was tightening it snug. So I know I'm not the only one. It could be just a bad bolt or one from a batch full installed on his car just like my scenario now could be.

good luck.

Same to you.

you're right. I mistook you saying 'american bolts' for meaning american threads. my bad.

I still call into question the need for a warning about the product richard ships over 1 broken bolt. And using 1 other person who had 1 broken bolt, from a completely different source, on a completely different part of the car is not convincing evidence.

People break bolts all the time. I've done it. I don't generally sound an alert for it.

I still call into question the need for a warning about the product richard ships over 1 broken bolt. And using 1 other person who had 1 broken bolt, from a completely different source, on a completely different part of the car is not convincing evidence.

I'm not warning them about the adapter, but the screws that come with it. I specifically stated that. It's just a caution when installing them if they notice something along the lines I did to get some better ones in place.

The relation is when I wondered if Richard got the screws from Mazda or a different source as I also stated. Not likely, but you never know.

People break bolts all the time. I've done it. I don't generally sound an alert for it.

Indeed screws do break but it matters how they break. As in by operator fault or a bad screw which is point in case for my post.

I'm not warning them about the adapter, but the screws that come with it. I specifically stated that. It's just a caution when installing them if they notice something along the lines I did to get some better ones in place.

The relation is when I wondered if Richard got the screws from Mazda or a different source as I also stated. Not likely, but you never know.



Indeed screws do break but it matters how they break. As in by operator fault or a bad screw which is point in case for my post.

i never said anything about the adapter. if you really think 1 person with 1 problem with 1 BOLT is enough to need to warn the whole internet....well.....neat.